Announcer: Welcome to the Geniuses of Copywriting podcast. A Peek into the minds and strategies of the world's greatest copywriters, marketers, and persuasion experts. And now, here's your host, Brian Cassingena.
Brian: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Geniuses of Copywriting podcast. It's a privilege to introduce to you a copywriter who is, you may not have come across this guy, but you probably come across his work. So I'd like to introduce Stefan Georgie to the call. Thanks so much for coming on. It's a real pleasure to finally talk face-to-face with you. How are you today?
Stefan: I'm good Brian. Thank you. It's really great to be here.
Brian: Yeah, yeah. Well it's my honor to host you because I came across you, after being on Justin Goff's lists and, and he's another copywriter who when you really come across in the last few years, but, but he's really getting a lot of respect and, and you did some stuff with him at TNC, which we'll get into later, but, but Justin's somebody who I've discussed a few times of the copywriters and that's kind of how I found your work. So I know that you've crashed in a lot of areas, a lot of online, sort of websites and offers and that. So, let's, let's talk bit a bit about that today. So can you start by giving us a bit of a bit of your background and, and , where you come from?
Stefan: Yeah, absolutely. So I started with direct response copywriting and I guess 2011. So it's like, to me it feels like a long time at this point, but, I suppose if you compared to some of these guys, I'm still fairly new. And you know, I'd always enjoyed writing. I had always been creative and they're really, for me, I, I've done, I've told this story a few times, so do the really long version, but basically, my wife is also a copywriter and when I first met her, I was at a poker table in Las Vegas and somebody asked her what she did and she says, I'm, you know, I'm a writer and I wanted to talk with her more, so I was like, what kind of writer?
Stefan: She said, I'm a copywriter. I was like, wow, that's really interesting and I grabbed my iPhone 1 or whatever I had and I googled what's a copywriter because I had no idea. And so that was my first introduction to copy. And then, you know, over time though, I went and took a job in South Florida with a fortune 500 company doing like an outside sales job and it was a really good job for a guy in his early twenties. I guess mid, early to mid twenties, but, I'd come home after spending all day in the hot Florida Sun.
Stefan: And I would make like $200 a day before taxes and all that. And she was like in her pajamas drinking a beer and she'd made a $1,000 or $2,000 in the same day. And so I kind of realized like, wow, like why am I, there's, there's a better way. It was that Aha moment of, wow, there's a better way. There's something that I could potentially be doing it. And at the time there was definitely the whole digital nomad, kind of that dream of my head of, you know, we could travel, I could be working from the beach, I can be working from coffee shops.
Stefan: You know, it turns out I have like an office and just come into my office. I'm not as much of a digital. And if I travel, I bring an extra monitor if I'm, if I'm going to work while I'm traveling, because
New Speaker: That's pretty serious.
Stefan: Yeah, it is. But, you know, it's just, it's just, something where it's not like, you know, some people will do it that way. But for me, you know I ended up being more stable and I have, I have a bad habit of trying to build really large companies, which can be good or bad, but there's a lot of times where I can over complicate things, where, you know, copy is just. The beautiful thing about, about copywriting is you can actually work from anywhere in the road and, you know, make a great living doing it. And so, I started writing copy.
Stefan: I put a thing on like a Warrior Forum for Lawyers for Hire and I think my sales letter offer was like $150 for a sales letter. And I you know, woke up and had like $300 in my paypal account and was like, oh my God. Like again, I can make money writing. And from there I, you know, to do the abbreviated version would be, I just started writing letters for people and it has some success.
Stefan: And then these guys out of Romania hired me for originally survival and I wrote some really nice survival offers for them that did pretty well. And then one of the partners in that business moved over to the health side and asked me to write a health offer, which at the time I'd actually never written health before. And I wrote one, I think the first one was actually was for sure it was a diabetes one called, I think they call it diabetes protocol or something like that.
Stefan: And ended up just killing it on Clickbank and doing tens and tens of millions of dollars. And as soon as it started, they saw kind of the, the success there, they asked me to write more health offers for them and had this whole kind of a compensation scheme where the more I produce for them, the more I got compensated. So like if I wrote like four sales letters in a month, I might make like four or $5,000, which sounds crazy.
Stefan: But like, right. But if I wrote ten sales letters in a month, I can make $70,000. Which obviously is a massive difference. And they were going through this blockbuster model of us, put out a bunch of stuff and see what you know works and what sticks and everything. And so, throughout that time, I, I found a kind of a process for writing good copy very quickly. And because you have to write 10 sales letters in a month, right?
Stefan: You've got to be as absurd and not really sustainable. But, it was not, not super, you know, sustainable. But I did it for several months and a bunch of them just became these massive, you know, kind of controls. And this is probably 20, I guess like 13, 14 into 15. And they basically at one point on click paying for the top 10 offers and Clickbank like nine of them I had written. And then yeah I eventually i kicked off Clickbank because they're aggressive health offers and I moved to software projects and you know, had success there. And so did that, and then in 2015 decided to start my own health supplement company, which I did call Holy Land Health, which, first year kind of struggled not because of the copy but just because it's goes from going from writing copy of running an entire supplement company, there's challenges. And so yeah, we grossed like a million bucks in the first year, but lost a bunch of money. But then the second year, you know, figured it out, scaled it with affiliates and got it to 20 million plus in revenue and, which was great. And then at the same time started launching other health settlement offers with other partners because I felt like I really had this sort of model and template down and just had a bunch of winners there.
New Speaker: And today, I mostly, you know, write some copy for, for clients, kind of not pretty, you would kind of high end stuff like I'm, you know, I'm generally not for hire but for the right partners and I have a, a product or a program called Copy Accelerator with Justin Goff where we're training and teaching people how to write copy. I'm sharing my method and processes and I have a consulting company that kind of does a little bit more of a done for you approach for some of our clients. But to be totally honest, I'm sort of getting away from that because it's a headache having to do all of that aspects of fun ability and when I can just write copy. So my main focus is, is really just on writing copy and teaching and training people to write copy.
Brian: Hmm. So you've, you've had an amazing track record, a lot of success in some of these niches that you've been in. And in some of your Clickbank results, you know, just amazing and you don't meet too many of these people, soon as people are required. So there's a friend of mine who has crushed it for a long time and you as well. But, you mentioned, something you mentioned about the, the speed of copywriter because when we, when we sit down to do a project, you know, if I quote somebody for a sales page, you're not going to be quoting them an absolute minimum of two weeks. If I know that subject inside out and there's very little research to be done, it's more like three to four in most cases. It's probably why I have wrote a lot more emails than I do sales pages. And I try and steer, steer away from those things that I like writing emails. When I write emails, I find that I can write a similar number of words a lot, a lot faster. And I don't know why that is. So I'm interested in, in , in your viewpoint on this. How do you write so fast?
Stefan: Sure. Yeah, so a lot of goes down to the process, which is the, again, the RMBC method or not again, I've never really brought it up yet, but it stands for Research Mechanism Brief and Copy. And so it's something I, I kind of created over time working with those, the information publishers in Romania and in having to do so much volume and scale and I'll get into that in a second. But by the way, I still call people like eight weeks. But you know, I'm like the prototypical copywriter where, you know, I'm dicking around for a couple of weeks and then get after it and I'm working on being even faster if my turnaround times. But yeah, no, I so still, even in the last month, I've ran two sales letters at both, have gotten incredible feedback. Both have been, one was like maybe 6,000 words when it was like 12,000 I cut down to 10,000 but both of those, I did write them in a week and which is also as a, as a note before I get into the process, if you're a copywriter and you can do that, like I don't know if I really want to, but given that I charge like 50 to a hundred thousand dollars, just write a sales letter for a person, which I do, right?
Stefan: If I can write one and I can write one a week, right? That means like right there, I can make 200 to $400,000 a month, like just writing sales copy and the actual hours of it, I timed myself for the one I did that was, 12,000 words cut down to 10,000 words. And so, you know, from start to finish, I can even record myself doing it. And then I'm including it as a bonus for my copy seller to people where they can check it out. But it was 17 hours. So actually, right. In theory, I could write two a week, which is, and I've done this in the past with, with these guys. So then we're like, all right, wow. So charge 50,000, so again, you know, if you're doing 50,000 and you do two a week, that's 100,000 a week, 400,000. If you charge $100,000 per, that's 800,000. It doesn't mean it's crazy how much you can make just writing, however, of course, do you want to write that much? Do you want to, not only that but but having something on the backend royalty. So you're writing fewer offers but you're making potentially more money. There's factors like that way. But it's interesting from a copy perspective. Yeah, go ahead.
New Speaker: No, sir. You were gonna ask something?
Stefan: No, I was going to go into the RMBC thing but I didn't want to cut you off.
Brian: No, that's fine cause yeah, cause I've heard your RMBC thing before, but I like to get, dive deeper into, into that for sure. Especially for the listeners out there. But back on the speed, on the speed of writing. That's, that's very interesting to me because, you know, I don't know if you do this, but, but, I, I wouldn't, in my business, my personal preference is not to, you know, set that expectation of such a fast riding with a client, you know, because, you know, things can happen and things can get derailed and current creative process as well. So like if, I've never timed myself, writing, writing a sales page, all of the scientific ways you've gone about that.
Brian: But you know, if, if I, if I sit down and write to thing, it probably takes me, you know, a week or so of time, you know, working every day to day, how many hours probably more than yours. But, do you, do you set that expectation with a client that you will be working on their stuff really quickly? Or do you, do you sort of add more time into, to get started, but you mentioned that the stuff around for a week or two and procrastinates it as and I'm the biggest one that is a guilty offender of that too, for sure. So how do you, how do you communicate that to the client?
Stefan: Yeah, I typically, and that's the danger of as I'm becoming more public or I'm doing podcasts and talking about my speed is when I take on clients, my fear is that they'll have that expectation. But again, I typically will tell them eight weeks, so like two months. Cause I'd rather do that and know that I can basically meet it. Or you know, in the worst case scenario, if I'm an extra week later, nobody really ever cares about nine weeks. But I'd rather do that. And then if I happen to just blast through it faster than, you know, they're happy that I'm happy. But nobody really complains about eight weeks because that's pretty typical. And you know, being on the other side of it, I've had times where I've hired copywriters for my agency, like freelancers and try to test them out because again, even though I can write all this copy, there's been times where it's like, well, I don't want to have to be the bottleneck.
Stefan: I'd like to find other good copywriters and pretty much without fail, you know, they'll tell you whatever time they tell you. It's usually like an extra month or, I mean it's at least a couple of weeks. Just today I was looking at that for an offer that we have on the agency side where it's, it's doing well. The, the writer did a very good job. But you know, I was looking back through the original conversation and he was like, I'm going to have a see you in two weeks. It was like, great. And then you just see me following up week after week after week to the point where, you know, in my head I'm like, am I ever actually going to get this or did this guy just steal the money, I mean he did ultimately deliver. And again, he did a good job with it. But, so I'd rather set the expectation that it's gonna take a long time and then if I happen to over deliver, that's better than, than kind of telling them really fast and then they're getting pissed and anxious.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. Cause that's the other way around the edge. I want to, do you feel that the client from a psychological point of view would, would value what you do less if you sat down and did it in a week and delivered in a week? Do you feel that? Yeah. Yeah. Cause that, that that's a feeling that I get as well. That they should be happy. You know, they should be a lot happier if you deliver the same product fast, but they're just not going to value it because they think that you copied down 21 Step Sales Letter, then the template, change to 15 words on the page and then, and then submitted that.
Stefan: Right. Which is, which is funny and ironic because I absolutely agree. Yeah, I do feel that way. But there's times, so for example, of a beat your control type situation where they have a control and like in theory, I could go in and you'll make several small tweaks and take like three hours and if it beats or control, that's what they've hired before and that was what, what the goal was. And yet I feel like if you do that and they paid you a lot of money for it, they would feel sort of robbed or cheated or concerned or whatever it is. But again, it's, it's funny because what all that really should matter in copy is the results. It's does, does my, do my actions bring you better results and what you already had? And so yeah, it's a funny psychological, psychological human nature thing. And so yeah, spreading it, spreading it out more does actually help from that perspective.
Brian: Yeah. And I think, any, any clients who would be listening to this, sort of appreciate the fact that to allow for, you know, you know, when it should happen you know because it happens to everyone and they, you're allowing for extra time for it to make this a private project instead of bleeping something up.
Brian: So I don't think, I think you've got any worries there. But let's go, let's go into the RMBC method because, I was really interested to dive deep into that. And that is that the formula that you've got the, at the, at the heart of what where the results you've gotten?
Stefan: Yeah, exactly. It is. So yeah, so RMBC, it's Research Mechanism Brief and Copy. And the reason it's so valuable, I'll go to you soon with a more detail. The reason it's so valuable is because it really breaks, especially on long form. It breaks the copywriting process into these very modular chunks but then make the entire task of writing a sales letter much less daunting. So with research, is what it sounds like it's research, but you're at answering a bunch of questions, much of research questions. So everything from as specific or as, as, as general, you know, who's your target market. Like what age are they? Right. Everything. We're all doing that. But then we're also looking at things like, what are there like hopes and dreams? Like what are their biggest fears? What are they, what outside forces do they believe have stopped them from living the life that they want to live?
Stefan: You know what, like some of their, their entire view, if they're real view about life, love, family, everything in one to three sentences. So there's a bunch of just really getting deeper into their skin. Oh, what are, there is a huge one for me, which is what are their victories and failures? I love looking at that and then where I get the answer for most of these questions. By the way, there's several places, but one of them is going to be forums, which I love forums because you'll see both. You'll see people who are talking about success they've had in a certain area. I know see people who are struggling and failing and trying to understand why they're failing. And then you know, you just get so much gold from that. So you know, whether it's like a Keto forum or a financial forum or in Day Trading forum, it could be a self defense forum, I mean there's forums for everything.
Stefan: And then once I'm there, I'm, I'm sorting by the most views and comments because I want to see what the market is both looking at. So if there's a subject that has a ton of views or, or form posting as a ton of views but not a ton of comments, that can still be valuable because you're like, maybe that's a good subject line almost, right? Or a good hook you can put in there. And then the comments like, wow, this is a real trigger for the market because people want to talk. They want to share their thoughts and feelings about it and everything. So I'm going through all of that and I'm writing it down. I'm answering these questions and then I'm going and I'm looking at, you know, the existing solutions, what, what, what exists right now? What is the market like about it? What does the market not like about this existing solutions?
Stefan: What is their experience been like? And you'll get some of that from forums, obviously I'll go to Amazon and then I'll just sort it by five star reviews and one star reviews. And I don't care about anything in between. So I'll go to the five star reviews and see what people were saying they love about a product or a guide or whatever. And they'll go to the one star reviews and see what do they hate about this, you know, say proctor guide, because that's going to help me to, you know, highlight those things that the market is liking when we're selling our products, but also address objections about, hey, you've had a poor experience with these things in the past. And then in addition to that, a few other things I look at, would be any kind of conspiratorial aspects that might be there.
Stefan: So, for example, you look at big energy, you're a big pharma or you know, beliefs that maybe an existing solution was found, you know, previous to 1960 but big farmer squashed it, or big energy squad, Tesla knew how to get free energy and you know, 1900 and Edison and in general electric squashed it. So I want to find that kind of stuff for corruption and conspiracies because I want to see that's really powerful and interesting as well. So you know, when you can look at that and, and find these kinds of people love when, when these lost solutions are rediscovered. And so whether that's, you know, Keto, this guy named William Banting, wrote a book about like on human corpulence in like 1863 or something. And it basically, it was like the Keto Diet in 1863 so I haven't actually used that in the hook for a Keto offer yet, but I found it through my research.
Stefan: And then, so that's really interesting because you can talk about, hey, you know, Keto, at for weight loss has actually been known since 1863. Why has it only become popular in the last 10 years while the powers,
New Speaker: Yeah, 150 solution, that kind of thing. Yeah, it says really interesting, right? Because people like that and there's also always a, um, like a paradise lost kind of thing that people respond very well to where, you know, people like to think that life was simpler, easier, better, pure back, you know, in the 50s or whenever it was in the old days and now there's been this corruption and now things are all terrible, which of course is true and not true because everyone had problems in 1950 and 1930. [inaudible] you know? Um, but there's, there's some kind of myth mythology there that people respond well to. So that's the research component and they moved to the mechanism component.
Stefan: Do you have any questions on the research component before I do that though? Um, and the one that went across your mind is do you have, uh, do value, uh, the kind of information engagement on Facebook groups or do you prefer forums and non Facebook sort of thing? I prefer both for sure. I, I do look at Facebook groups as well and it's going to depend on a couple of things. I mean, there's times where I find a forum that's just so loaded that I feel like I don't really need to go to the Facebook group. So being a lazy copywriter, I may not, if I feel like I'm getting some good stuff on forums but it just feels incomplete or I feel like I really don't fully understand the markets psychology yet, then I'll definitely turn into Facebook as well. Um, but yeah, and even like youtube, like I used to go to youtube a lot and read the comments in Youtube, but which I do sometimes, but, but there's so many troll and kind of stupid comments on Youtube as well.
Stefan: Youtube, yeah, it's kind of like not that helpful. Um, but Facebook definitely, yeah, I do still go for sure. And then also like news sites, right? If you're writing to conservatives and you go to Breitbart and read the comments, I mean it's full of kind of angry vitriol for the most part. But at the same time, if that's your market, you want to kind of know how they talk to you. How are they thinking, how are they feeling? You know, all of that kind of stuff. Yeah, true. Yeah. So cool. So then we go to the mechanism which is going to be your unique mechanism behind the problem and your unique mechanism behind the solution. So the most important thing there is, like I, I certainly didn't come up with the idea of the unique mechanism, but I think it's really important that you bifurcate or that you split the two.
Stefan: Because I think what happens is a lot of people try to explain what makes a product unique, but they don't explain kind of like a surprising reason behind the problem you've had. So you know, using the easy example of weight loss, it's like if you're like, well you've tried diets and you've failed because most health marketers wants you to fail. So you keep buying their products and it's like, okay, yeah, cool. I guess. But if you can find this really unique reason, like there's, trying to think of how like I've got a couple of really good examples, but they're, they're involved in active projects but I don't want to give them away. But, um, I won't give it away. But if you find the unique reason why you haven't built to lose weight, I mean, I guess the older example is, would have been, I mean, back in the day it was like the idea that, um, you know, carbs cause weight gain and cars cause to be fat.
Stefan: Now everybody knows that. But there was a point where the Atkins diet came out where that was fairly revolutionary. And so that was a shift because the reason you hadn't been to lose weight is because carbs are actually making you fat. And by eliminating carbs you can then actually lose the weight you want, wanted to lose. And so now everybody knows that. But there was a time where that was a surprising, unique mechanism behind the problem that carbs are bad or you know, it might be, you have talked about like Brown fat, which there's like white fat and Brown fat or there's a deep fat, right, which I think deep Pasa, a hippo wonder who has it. But the idea of that there's, there's regular fat or something, but then there's this deeper fat and that unless this deep fat is kind of activated and burned and you can never get rid of your, like a shallow fat, and I'm kind of making up terminology, but let's say it that because you know, people have failed, they've tried a lot of different solutions in the past, so they need to understand if you can show them, here's why you failed because this is a real, you knew 98% of the problem, you understood, but here's the 2% you were missing.
Stefan: So it's gotta be simple enough that they can grasp onto it and have like that light bulb, that light switch to kind of go off where they have that Aha moment of, wow, okay, so it's just that little tweak, that little thing I didn't understand. So that's where the unique mechanism behind the problem is so important. And then logically you can connect that to the unique mechanism behind the solution, right? Because you're like, okay, so if deep fat is being stored and most weight loss programs or supplements or diet don't target deep fat, then the solution is to target deep fat, right? I mean, it's a very simple, logical kind of connection, but, but the unique mechanism of the solution only we'll fully make sense once they accepted and understand the unique mechanism of the problem. Um, and so, and then you can go into more detail and be like, so how do you destroy deep fat?
Stefan: Well, your body contains blah, blah, blah. And by taking these ingredients, activate some enzyme or whatever your solution is and go from there. But there's that logical connection between those two things. And so that's super crucial. Um, I think a lot of people were afraid, but for my copy accelerator program I'm doing, I'm actually talking about mechanisms tomorrow. I think people get afraid of them because they don't want to do research or they're afraid of over explaining things are sounding too scientific. And those are all concerns. I think one of the challenges with that, especially in a health offer is wanting to make sure that you are being really conversational and really dumbing it down. Um, and sounding like excited, like enthusiastic. Like I think some people aren't, a lot of copywriters aren't science people like Greg, their creatives. And that's what's going on. So then when I have to explain science, they feel like they're reporting like a school report and that's how they feel, but then it's reflected in their copy and then your eyes glaze over and it's boring and it sucks.
Stefan: But if you can be like, oh my God, this is the most exciting discovery ever. This is like, you know, uh, Columbus, you know, discovery and North America in 1492 this is like, you know, Newton discovering the laws of gravity. This is like so important. This is going to change everything and you can have that excitement and then convey that through your writing with the mechanism, then the market tends to stick with you and they're going to be really true believers because once they believe that they, that they really believe that they feel for a reason other than what they understood before. And then they really believe that there is a way to actually fix that. They're just more illiquid to buy the solution as long as your solution is tied in or your product is tied in to the solution you've presented. Yeah. Um, yeah.
Stefan: Uh, and so where do I figure out how to figure that out, I guess is one question, right? How do I figure out the unique mechanism that comes back to research? It is a big question. Um, you know, there's a couple of different places that, you know, through the research phase that I go through, so are in RNBC out. You'll sometimes find the kernel of the unique mechanism. If you're looking at articles and blogs and forums and people, you'll, you'll end up finding interesting things or beliefs or some people may be like, oh, and we all know that this is a real reason why. And then if I see something like that there, if that's great and I'll take you in our research more. Um, or, you know, I'll just sort of use Google a lot. It's funny as it sounds, and I'll Google like, um, like, uh, or, you know, I've worked for health, I'll go to like a science daily.com a ton.
Stefan: I don't know if you've ever been there, but it's, um, you know, all these new discoveries all the time. So they're constantly sharing new discoveries. And it's kind of funny because, you know, in the same month you might have 20 different causes of diabetes have been discovered. This. And there are all kinds of conflicting and different, but they just report it all. But it's actually a treasure trove or finding mechanisms. But even, um, you know, it doesn't have to be, like if you're doing like dating, uh, whiff to alien stuff to you, I think you can also take like existing principles and then just add in like, um, like cause something new. Right? So like a, if there's, um, what's a good example? I mean, just if you're talking about sort of pre framing or, um, you know, kind of, um, I forget the terminology for it. Basically kind of subtly, uh, getting a woman to be interested in you without her realizing it. Right? You can sort of call it like, um, you know, I don't know sexual embedment. Right? And so there's times like that where you can then take like existing concepts, put a cool name on them, and then make it sound like a discovery when it's not. So that's another way that you can do it. Um, and yeah,
Brian: the, I was going to ask, you know, what happens when you, um, uh, come across a product that, or something that you're writing for that, um, you just can't find any, any unique mechanism or, or even, um, you know, anything, any kind of book about it. Okay. That's the problem we, we will come up against, um, you know, sometimes it's just hard to find that sometimes the product doesn't have one at all.
Stefan: Yeah. I mean, if it's like really it would depend. I mean, I'm generally personally try not to ever do think for those products. Um, but you know, I mean you can like, I mean, so like probiotics, like I really don't ever want to write another probiotic sales letter as long as I live. Um, just because it's like kind of that way, right? It's like I'm your Ba, your gut, your gut is filled with, you know, kind of, um, bacteria and it can be good or bad. And when the balance of bad bacteria, it becomes greater than the balance of good bacteria. It causes what's called dysbiosis. And you get like, um, you know, you're bloated and Gassy and affects your health and all these ways. But I do think actually you can almost always find one. Uh, you know, if you're selling like staples, then that might be tough, right?
Stefan: But even then, I deal, you're finding some technology, but if you're, if you're doing anything at all unique, like I think, you know, if it's your prompt and you don't have anything like that, then why the fuck are you selling that? Unless you're on Amazon and you just, you rank like, I know guys who make millions of dollars a month just selling like, um, like nuts, bolts, screws, you know, really boring stuff on Amazon. And so in that case, like great. And then you really are, it's very, um, kind of like a feature driven and it's sort of like, you know, made with industrial, like steel made in America, made in the high quality thing. Like whenever you can still do stuff. But, um, but generally I think you can't, I mean, even with, with, with Holy Land Health and I had a blood sugar supplement called HL 12.
Stefan: And I mean, honestly it was like the stock formulation everybody can get for blood sugar. So I've been around for forever, but I basically found a way to tie those ingredients to the Bible because if, for example, it has Gogol which is also known as McComber. So, okay, amber, great. The three wise men, it's men and yet another one that came from with the Bucharest save like, um, family of plants, which also includes, uh, like, um, frankincense. Oh, okay, great. Right? And then like, how do you do gold? What I did actually is it had a bunch of essential minerals and elements in it and it was at the periodic table and basically a lot of them came in this one section of the periodic table and that was like a burnt orange, brown, almost gold. So I was like, these are the golden elements from the periodic table and start putting these in as well.
Stefan: So now you've got your Frankincense, gold, and myrrh. And tying that all together and then, you know, just quoting scripture and, and so, you know, the thing and then I think, you know, was doing million bucks plus a month for folks, you know, sustained period of time over a year, a couple of like a year and a half, um, two years even. But right. So I do is I took saying that anybody could have sold and I just sold it in a different way. So in that and that sort of situation as well, you can, um, sometimes a story can, can, uh, really strong discovery story can substitute for the unique mechanism. Right? So you can, that would be the one way to maybe get around it if there's not a unique mechanism. Yeah, yeah. Um, that's, that's the thing is that it's best selling the story rather than rather than the thing, you know, so that's it.
Stefan: That's very a random and it's really interesting how well those examples that you gave a really valuable cool. Yeah, for sure. Definitely. And then that's one thing to note, like the mechanism is super important, but you're doing that after the lead in the background story and stuff like that. So you're not, you'd want to hint at a unique mechanism in the lead, right? You'd want to hint at some surprising discovery, uh, or you know, a contrary and thing like why, you know, yeah, that by Xyz you don't actually help you to accomplish this. But this little known surprising thing does. Uh, but one mistake I'll actually see a lot of copywriters make is trying to explain the mechanism in the lead of the copy. They start going into science too much. And it's just like not the place for it because all you're trying to do as, as you know, you know, and most of us go, copywriters know is get someone who read or watch the first line to now do the second one and the third one and the fourth one.
Stefan: I mean, so I'm fall, you're trying to do. And so, uh, this is a huge mistake people make is trying to explain the mechanism too much. Or I have seen copywriters who have, I've, I've trained on the unique mechanism and who have written better copy, but then they start obsessing too much over it to the point where it's like 4,000 words of science and you're like, dude, like you just don't need that much either. Right. You, it needs to be enough to convince them and to be credible, but you don't need to like, it's not a science textbook. So there is a fine line there. It's worth kind of pointing that out for sure. Um, yeah, it's a good point too. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And so after research and the mechanism, which is divided into the unique mechanism of the problem and the solution, we're going to the brief, which for me, it's really just my, my questionnaire, but I'm not sending that to a client.
Stefan: Uh, and like, I like to talk of clients. If they have existing resources, that's great, but I'm never one of those copywriters who is sending out a questionnaire where it's kind of like, Hey, give me all your research. Give me everything you have. You know, they'll let you know if they have the research and they give it to you. That can be very beneficial and helpful. But I don't really want that much from them. I want to know, I want to do that on my own because I'm to write better copy. Uh, so again, I, I, you know, depending on the sophistication of the client, they may have a ton of data and analytics and they're tested angle. So I do want to know all of that and so I'll ask what they have, that kind of stuff. But again, I'm not really sending them this questionnaire of, of sort of things because I don't want their research because that might not tie into my, I might find better research than they, they have.
Stefan: Um, and so my brief is sort of this questionnaire, but the nice thing is you're applying components of, of the research part and the mechanism part into the brief. So, right. The first question is kind of like, Yo, who's the target market? Like, describe the target market, which you have from research, and then you're looking at, you know, what are their major short term and longterm pain points. And you've got that from your research as well. So you're plugging that right in. Uh, you're looking at you, what's the big promise that you're going to make them, uh, about how to reverse those pain points? So, right, if these are their pain points, what are you telling them that's gonna make those, those pain points are that pain point go away and you're writing that out, which is important because now you have your big promise for your sales copy and for the product.
Stefan: Uh, we're looking at existing solutions. What have they tried in the past? You know, why didn't they work? Which is again, from the research component we're looking at, you know, what's the surprising reason why, what's the surprising solution? What's, you know, why did they fail 99% of the time and why is this different? And so now you have your mechanism and you're plugging that right into it. A few other unique things you have or, uh, you know, like metaphors. Like I like to write, write out some metaphors in my brief and I'll usually get those through research and the mechanism part. I've got ideas or any of my head as you, as you read, sometimes people just share great metaphors for you during the research component or you know, you come, you come up with them. But I think those are very important because obviously people, it's easy to understand through metaphors.
Stefan: Like if, if you're talking about, you know, like a bucket of a hole in it or whatever it is. I mean there's just, you know, simple things that make it easier to understand. Um, paradoxical questions, which I've talked about a lot, which I really love. This is something that Dan Roitman, you know, did in the Pimsleur approach. Um, and love. Other people do it too. But, but basically this question of, you know, this seems obvious, but that people who don't have a great answer too, so, but Pimsleur, it was like, why is it that it's so easy for a child to learn multiple languages? But it's so hard for an adult color, right? So that's one that you stop and you think about and you're like, why is that? And then you know, the answer, this is ties into the mechanism as well because kids, uh, you know, learning this really innate natural way, but adults are taught in these sort of course like curriculum type ways that just aren't in tune with how we naturally learn languages.
Stefan: And so our product is going to show you how to learn like a child learns, which is way easier. So it's a simple question but it sets up so much because once you have that, you know, you understand why you haven't got to learn the language before you understand how this is different. There's a proof element because nobody can argue with the fact that a child learns language very easily. And you know, you always hear stories about it. The kid has got a nanny, so he speaks like, you know, English and Spanish at the age of four or whatever it is. Um, and so I love trying to find paradoxical questions there. And it can be as simple as, you know, why are they should be something that people will know. It's true though, right? So people were like, that's what we say if you will make with the paradoxical question is, is it can be like, um, you know, like, like I know that 95% of my cholesterol was formed with this like compound.
Stefan: So why is it that this compounds not, you know, I'm being treated for my height or why are we, why are we not attacking this? How from my high cholesterol? But people that don't know that, right. Nobody knows about whatever. That compound is a random example. I'm making it up. It should be something that's obvious. Like, um, why do the, you know, whatever. Why did the Japanese live longer than everybody else? Right. Why? The French paradox is a really famous one. Why are the French able to cancer? Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah. I want to show you that's a great one. Um, yeah, I love it. So exactly the stuff like that or uh, yeah, just so many of them. Why don't dogs get diabetes? You know, whatever it is. Um, love stuff like that. And so I'm trying to think about those in the context of my copy.
Stefan: I'm looking at the, the background story, which normally I either depending on the client and what's happening there, I've usually already know that just from talking with the client and finding out, you know, what the story is and then through the research and the mechanism, especially, I'm finding out the story of the discovery, uh, because I'm tying it into the scientific kind of discoveries. If it's a health thing or you know, the unique mechanism, which is sort of going to be part of the story, like, um, but it's always kind of the same, right? Like, um, well this a go of versus actually I guess there's like, I was in pain, I was struggling. I had some, some, uh, trigger event that sort of, you know, send me off on this journey of realizing I have to change. And so I looked for solutions out of the box solutions didn't work.
Stefan: Uh, but I've found like a, you know, a solution that seems like it would work. And I had a trial and error period. And at first it wasn't great and then it was, and then I ultimately had to sell this product to the public because other people weren't doing it. Um, you know, maybe a story like that or it can be the health expert who is recounting the story of somebody they know who had that struggle or an investment expert who was talking about how he sees all these people who keep getting played by the stock market. And he realized that he has to like come in and teach people how to do it. And maybe it comes to a head when some woman he knows like loses her house because she makes bad investments. Uh, but you know, the story is pretty similar but I'm writing that out in the sales copy are in the brief and then the product itself, the product description, I'm writing that out as well.
Stefan: And I'm trying to get pretty specific. I'd rather write out almost like if it was going to be in the copy to write it in the brief like that. So, uh, you know, what it is, what are the features and benefits of course, fascinations for if fascinations are applicable. So, you know, um, especially on info products or ebooks, fascinations are generally so important. Um, no fat. Yeah. I love, I'd be to love. Fascinating. That was one of the things, I think one of the single thing is, and I guess this would be good advice for, uh, you know, if there's copywriters who watched this who are earlier on in their journey, uh, one of the single fastest ways to write better copy is to study fascinations and, and just practicing a lot and then started adding them to your copy. And you know, you can put them, I generally put the most often in the lead and then when talking about the product, um, yeah, you can figure out how to work them into other parts of the copy too.
Stefan: But yeah. Yeah. Uh, and then other than that, I'm just looking at maybe if there's any, um, oh, a headline ideas because we're telling from the brief, I'll be like, do I have any ideas for the headline? Could be. And um, you know, if I'm coming up with upsells for the client, which I really prefer not to do, but I've had to in the past and stuff, um, I'm right, right. Logical up sell ideas and they are a logical connection, right? Because that, that's another thing that's super important is the guy, there's some more of the same thing or sell something this really clearly connected. Like if you're doing, you know, something for you, even if it's one way to lose weight in the first episode is how to increase your metabolism even more, which I guess is more of the same thing to an extent.
Stefan: But um, you know, or, or, or if you know, you're cleaning your gut, but now you've cleaned your gut, you need to put something back in it. So now buys probiotics. So step one's that gut cleanse and sell one is like a probiotic mixture, whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah. So by marketing course and the upstairs of the traffic course, exactly, right. This, that's like, Hey, now you're going to go to market. But what, you know, what does it matter how good your funnel is, our, if nobody sees them because that's such a, yeah, totally. Um, okay. So as RMB and then see he's just going to be copied. And for that, you know, I have a pretty standard outline, um, which I'll show, you know, I'm going to let your, your viewers or listeners, um, kind of get for free. I can share that now or later or whatever.
Stefan: But, um, basically at that point we're just taking it and plugging in, um, everything from the brief into the copy, right? So you're looking at the lead, which has, it's Kinda like a checklist. I'm going to cheat and I'm going to open up my kinda outline here so I can run again. Anything but yeah, I mean better than you know, uh, but you know, the, the way I, the things that have the elements I mainly have here for the lead, right, would be calling out the problem promising a solution to the pain point. You're promising to save time and money teasing an emotional discovery story. So, I mean there is one teasing the unique mechanism behind the solution. So again, teasing it, not giving it away. Uh, ideally teasing the contrarian nature of the mechanism, right? That this flies in the face of what you've been told before.
Stefan: Working at fascinations as an incentive for continuing with a copy. So, you know, in fact like a, you know, whatever, interesting fascination and I'll explain why, you know, in five minutes from now and a couple of moments, I'm going to show you why this is the case. Uh, so working in fascinations, briefly mentioning credibility builders, that's another thing that I think is kind of crazy. I see sales letters sometimes there are pretty successful, but where the narrator is talking the entire time without ever telling you who he is or she is. And I kind of blows my mind because I'm like, why people want to kind of know who they're hearing from. Like, who are you? Like, why are you talking to me? Just like the voice of God talking. Um, that's kind of weird, right? So I think the credibility builders both for the person, like who that person is, who the Avatar is, the spokesperson as well as then credibility builders about, you know, whatever.
Stefan: Like if it's a health and, and Harvard is based on Harvard studies or you know, you're in the financial space and you're like, this is, you know, in fact, Ronald Reagan's former financial advisor said that this was the smartest thing you could do with your money through over the age of 55 or, you know, whatever it is, just having credibility voters in there. Um, you know, qualifiers I think are important too. Like who this works for. Like, is it for everyone? Is it for certain subset, you know, speaking to your market. And I think that's very important because we're generally not trying to sell everything to everybody. And so I'd rather, you know, if it's weight loss as an, it's just such an easy example. So I go to weight loss a lot, but you know, it's like, yeah, it works. If you're 18 or 90, if you have 10 pounds to lose or a hundred pounds to lose, um, you know, or there are times where, again, you're calling out a specific group.
Stefan: So going back to like a Christian and supplement, it's like, you know, every Christian must watch this urgent video. You know, there's an unholy war being declared against us by the atheist scientists who control modern medicine. I mean, it's very us versus them. And, um, but, but amongst the, I'm calling out my tribe or my who, who, who I'm talking to and qualifying in the market, uh, I'm briefly addressing skepticism because obviously, you know, the market sees a lot of these offers. They've seen a lot of solutions. And so, you know, it's generally being like, and even though this, this may sound hard to believe now, or even if you've been, you've tried solutions in the past and been burned or whatever it is, like, I totally get it, but stick with me and I'm going to give you the proof that what I'm saying is different.
Stefan: And then, you know, you're generally ending the lead component with some broad testimonials. Not about the product specifically, but about the solution. So rather than being like, um, you know, supplement ex helped me to, you know, manage my blood sugar better. You're just saying, wow, like this solution was great and it really helped me to have more energy and you know, curve my erratic blood sugar or whatever it may be. And so, um, you know, that's basically my lead that then I'm going to the background story. So obviously just the, who am I, the credibility builders. Again, like more about you, I mentioned this briefly. Let me tell you more about who I am. Uh, me or someone close to you was in pain. And here's the emotional story about it. Traditional solutions aren't working. There's a trigger event. Like I mentioned that the pain point is escalated to our Avatar or whoever's story's being told realizes the same must change.
Stefan: They search for Truth and answers and you know, ultimately either they start to find them in the unique mechanism with a problem, which we'll get to in a minute. Or maybe sometimes like a wise like sensei person appears, who tells them that they're going to reveal the truth that's been hidden. So if you're doing the good guru letter and there's a guy who was struggling and he meets this through and then the gurus and now going to tell them, you know, why it is that they've been broke when he's been rich or whatever it is from there. So again, lead background story, unique mechanisms of the problem, which we've talked about a lot of detail, right? So, um, as they're looking for truth and truth and answers, they find out or realize that there is a real reason they'd been failing and it was this. And then you're going to part four of the sales letter, which is going to be your unique mechanism, the solution, which is again, logically.
Stefan: Now that you know the real reason you failed, here's how you can really succeed. Uh, and again, just sort of a, you might start very broad and then go into more specifics of the unique mechanism, the solution. So you know, it might be broadly, you weren't burning deep fat. Great. Now here's how you can burn deep fat. And then here are the answers. Um, again, credibility, proof elements. So it's a settlement, citation, scientific sources, um, you know, social proof, whatever you need to have there. So then part five for me would be the product buildup and reveal, which is, you know, now that the Avatar knows the solution, he or she looks for an out of the box version saying that we'll just end their quest and solve the problem right there. But of course out of the box solutions are flawed. So you know, either the Avatar has to do with themselves and create a new solution or they find that one rogue person who has created this solution and they work with them to bring it to the public.
Stefan: And ideally, you know, even better if it, if the avatars creating the solution themselves and you know, if they sort of test it and they see a little bit of success, but there are problems or setbacks and they keep going and eventually they have this success and here's some proof that the product works, right. Other people are asking for it. And the process is born. And then the clothes, I kind of include the product description in the clothes because I think you're starting to get to the close once you get there. So pod details, right? Like what's included, what makes it special, unique selling propositions, your, you know, discussing and dismissing other alternatives because they're expensive or side effects or poor quality or unproven. Uh, you're including more testimonials. You're learning that in there. You're telling them specifically how to use the product. I think that's important in the copy.
Stefan: Not an entire instruction manual, but at least a couple wine. So again, if it's a supplement, take two pills per day in the morning, or if it's a, you know, DIY aquaponics saying like basically, you know, you'll get five steps, you'll do step one, two, three, four, five. What we're giving you, the guide, it's very easily laid out. Um, you know, whatever it is. Scarcity, you know, demand is high, supplies are limited out of stocks are calm and, uh, you know, any kind of additional urgency about the powers that may, that be, you know, want you to not share this. Um, ideally like a personal mission, right? Like that's the Avatar is personal mission to make things better. You know, I told you about this sob story. I don't want more people to, to suffer this similar sob story. And so, you know, this is my mission.
Stefan: So it's not about money, which is why, you know, even though I could charge you a bunch of money, I'm going to charge you less money, right? Um, inherited that too. Obviously see the justification about other specifically dimensionalizing the price of other stuff. Like, you know, you can pay $1,000 a month for this or you know, $500 a month for this and even this would cost you like two 50 a month, which is, uh, whatever it is over the course of a year. Can't do math very over $4,000, you know, whatever, um, caught actions. What happens after you click the button? Super simple. But I see people forget that sometimes. Um, you know, if you have bonuses revealing the bonuses, the guarantee, of course, more calls to action typically closing it with a two choices, right? You know that you have two paths in front of you, two roads, you know, you can kind of do the path that you've been on that hasn't gone your results.
Stefan: And if you do that, you know, why are you, what's going to change? The Einstein said the definition when sandy was, you know, making the same mistake over and over again and not learning from it by ODB insane. Why would you keep making that same mistake when you have the other option, the other path, which is to try this new novel solution that now you understand it works. You know, in your heart that this could work. You're protected by the guarantee. You've got, you know, 60 days, 180 days, whatever it is. So if I'm full of Shit, there's no risk. Literally, why would you not try this when nothing's worked in the past? Don't you need to try something new? Um, and so that's why, you know, this makes the most sense, but you really do have to have, now this presentation is ending. The powers that be, don't know what the, this up, you know, I don't know how long it will be available for. I might run out of inventory, whatever your reason is called action. Thank you for watching. And then your Faq is, um, so that's the outline. Hopefully I have a tendency to talk fast and I'm actually intentionally trying not to talk too fast, but I'm sure I still am talking a little fast, but, um,
Brian: it sounds good. It's quite good. And it's a huge outline too. It's very comprehensive and, and uh, well you just went through, it's probably better than most copywriting courses that I've had cause it kind of covers the whole thing. Uh, you haven't left anything, so that's really awesome.
Stefan: I appreciate that. Yeah, go on. Go on. I'm sorry. Just real quick on that, just one note it's going back to is if you look at the mechanism and the brief, right? Because again, in the lead you already kind of between the RMB part, you know what your emotional discovery is. You know what your unique mechanism is. You know what the product is. Um, you know, you know, kind of like the skepticism, you know, the pain points that the market has already faced. Um, you know, you can, you know how to shut down traditional solutions. Uh, you know, basically so much of this stuff already that when it comes to writing it's not just not that hard. You have to write a good lead and there's, you know, you can model off other leads if you're a good lead right already. Awesome. The background story is very formulaic.
Stefan: It's, it's very predictable and as long as you know the background story, you know, you can learn from your research, additional pain points and dimensionalize them and highlight them. And then a huge part of the sales that are probably two to 3000 words or 1500 or 3000 words is going to be the mechanism component. Cause you've already done all of that. So you basically just drag and drop it in there. You get to the product you've already written out with a product is and your brief. So that part's right there. The clothes is extremely formulaic. You generally have the same clothes again and again. And so going back to how I can write super fast, um, you know, because it's so templatized by the time it comes to write the sales letter, uh, I've already have all my work done and then I have this modular sort of like multistep thing.
Stefan: So the name of my sales are, is broken down into these little pieces. And if I'm like, man, I don't want to do the lead right now, then I'm like, fuck it. I'll skip the lead and I'll start with the background story and I'll write that and I have the mechanism and whatever. But I just feel you're so much more control. And so that's what, why I'm able to write copy so fast is because of that. So I just want to kind of highlight again to tie it all together. Why, um, why that's so important.
Brian: Yeah, it's crucial and it's got such a massive benefits of riding fast and just one of them. Uh, so let's get people that, uh, um, that, uh, outline that you mentioned, how can they get their hands on that?
Stefan: Yeah, for sure. If you go to copy and funnel accelerator. So, and a and d copy and to funnel accelerator.com four slash geniuses of copywriting. There's gonna be a little like a little squeeze page, opt in, put your name, your email address in, and then you'll have access to the outline. And you also get, uh, access to the video recording of my mastermind talk at traffic and conversion with Justin where I talk about this stuff as well. Uh, you know, and probably more detail today than there, but there are a lot of other interesting kinds of things that come up including some stuff on Facebook compliance. Uh, you know, how we're selling blood sugar on Facebook without massive headaches. Um, and some other things too. So super valuable. There's no, no, uh, I don't have an email sequence set up. You're not going to get a kid on it.
Stefan: You know, my hope is there is a video about my copy starter program I'm doing with Justin, which you know where I'm teaching copy, like every single week. Like I'm not going to give a pitch on, but to explain what it is, right?
Brian: Yeah yeah.
Stefan: Basically there's like a weekly zoom call. So I'm walking people through the RMBC method in detail or dissecting, critiquing copy of both mine and other people's. Justin's talking about upsells, backend kind of optimization, things like that. Mostly from a copy perspective. And there's like a Facebook group where people are, you know ask me questions, it's very active. And then there's a plan level and a gold level. Platinum people can actually bring copy to the call and get feedback that's at its cap right now, we set it at 20 people and, and, and we hit that and we've got about 50 people in the program. So anyway, there is a video once you opt-in to get the outline and watched my mastermind talk because obviously I think it's an incredible value and an awesome program so when you go hear about it, but there's diamond and you won't get like as of now a bunch of, you know, those are autoresponders or anything like that.
Brian: Yeah. But I was going to ask this. There's still spots available in the lower tier, not the top one, the lower.
Stefan: Yeah, exactly for Gold. And that's sort of the way we designed it, to be honest, is is you know gold from our perspective is more scalable side because it doesn't have that feedback portion, but it's still really valuable. The gold group is, is, is loving it because, you know, you've got me and Justin talking copy again teaching, training and then the Facebook group, people are bringing a lot of cool stuff and and normally that we have a ton of really good marketers. I mean like, you know, Gore, a bunch of Gore guys are in it, Natural Health Sherpa, Healthy Back. You've got Dan Lok's teams in it like, just a ton, ton of guys. Alan Baylor for patriots is in it now but for Patriots isn't it? And so the point is Alvin Wang from two jacks I can keep going. But because of that, it's a really cool groups so people are asking questions about both copy, but even some of their funnel stuff. And you've got this like all star list of experts who are responding to comments and questions in the Facebook group. And that's all included in the gold. There's two live events per year, so gold is still extremely valuable. And yeah, and frankly very cost effective too. I mean it's like less than $2,000 a month for gold. And when you look at it that way, it's pretty crazy, you know, value.
Brian: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, I, I highly recommend the listeners get along and check that out because if you want to take your copies of the next level, I think that's a place you can really do it. But at least go and get that to go and get that south where the outline because that's really valuable, but it doesn't cost anything. And I'll check a link on the page. Um, uh, uh, when I put this, uh, episode up on the site, um, if you're listening on Itunes, it was a copy and funnels.com
Stefan: copy and funnel. It's actually copying facts along domain for now, but copy and funnel accelerator.com. All right. Yeah. And then forward slash geniuses of copywriting.
Brian: Yeah, yeah. We should probably find a bitly link for that or something,
Stefan: a bad idea. We're actually, we're changing the name of it actually to copying solder just because we realized that that's what most people were the most interested in. However, somebody took copies, syrah.com so we've got, I'm trying to, trying to buy that domain. If you own it and you're listening first of all Feu but second of all, you know, hit me up and we can talk price or whatever, but yeah,
Brian: yeah. Finance, copy and photo accelerate. It's dot com forward slash jeans to copywriting. Yeah, I'll put it, I'll put a link on the page. Go into that. A euro. If you're listening on iTunes and I strongly suggest that you do what, what Stephan just laid out with an amazing plan. What's going to be done won't valley bullets is to watch that video and get the, get the PDFs via self with the, the outline. That's a whole copywriting course in itself and it will be really good idea if you join the copy. So the writer a program has what? Copy and funnel accelerator program. Um, uh, while there's still spots available because they will fill out soon, I'm sure. But, um, yeah, I'd like to really thank you for sharing all of that. Um, you know, it went a bit longer than that some of our sites do, but it was totally worth it. Um, it was, uh, you know, I hate saying it, it's a, it was a copywriting course in itself, but you could take what, uh, what you've shared here and, and to run with that, um, you've talked, we'd be a lot easier if you go and get the outline and join the program as well. But what you shared here, it's been really valuable. So really like to thank you for, uh, sharing all of that with us and sharing your valuable time, but, uh, it is appreciate it and we'll have to do this again sometime.
Stefan: Yeah, absolutely. It's my pleasure and I really appreciate you having me on and I can definitely be a little bit long winded, but, um, hopefully people who listen or watch can take this. I really believe that a process is just, it's so important. It's like trying to swim upstream versus coming down, you know, cause it's the end day.
Brian: Yeah. Thanks for that. I appreciate you coming on. You're a true genius of copywriting.
Stefan: Thank you Brian. Really appreciate it. Thanks very much. Thank you.
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