Announcer: Welcome to the geniuses of copywriting podcast, a peek into the minds and strategies of the world's greatest copywriters, marketers, and persuasion experts. And now, Here's your host Brian Cassingena.
Brian: Hey guys, welcome back to the geniuses of copywriting podcast. It's my privilege and honor to introduce to you guys a personal friend of mine. She needs no introduction. If you're not sure who she, she, it's then just a quick Google search, you won't be disappointed. You'll find out all about it. She’s a good Australian copywriter, friend’s names Pauline Longdon. So welcome to the show Pauline, It's great to have you on.
Pauline: Thanks Brian. It's great to be here. I’m honored actually.
Brian: Yeah, no problem. It wouldn't be geniuses of copywriting without you.
Pauline: Thank you.
Brian: So, so what, what we're talking about today is really interesting because, you know, I've just hired a new mentor and this is something that I've been passionate about over my career and that you have as well. So this is what we were talking about off camera a few minutes ago, about mentors and that sort of thing. So I'm really interested in your mentor story here because it's a really interesting one.
Pauline: I've had quite a few mentors along my journey. You know, I've only been writing for I think about six years now, but, pretty much from the first, first, I guess first year I've, I've just, so the benefit of having a mentor, people were running like, you know, those group
training sessions and I didn't feel like, you know, advancing as fast as the slowest person, which seems to be the way these things are run. And that's nothing against the courses, but I just wanted to accelerate or I just knew that I had so much potential and I didn’t want to do that.
Pauline: So it started to look around for mentors and, as you know, I found Trev Crook and a, he's my first mentor and then I had Lorrie Morgan Ferrero and I've had a couple of years in between there, but my best mentor that I've got so far is Parris Lampropoulos, who's, if he needs, needs no introduction and Google him if you don't know who he is. Yeah, he's a pretty highly sought after and he's not mucking around, but I've got to tell you, man, I was in the army and that's simple and easy compared to being a periscope,
Brian: With this copy cubs, which is what he calls his students. And you compare it to even way beyond what you found in the military. Yeah, that sounds crazy.
Pauline: Yeah. And also added to the fact that, cause he's in New York and the time difference for me is that like in winter I'm getting up at like 4:30 in the morning, so that can be on a 4:00 AM call. And then in summer I get asleep into, you know, a bit longer. But I, I, used to think that like, I could just get up for the call and be alert and, but he starts a call with pop quizzes and he's like, okay, Pauline, why did you say that? Why did you write that you can't have a sleepy deep brain so you have to be like alert and awake at that hour in the morning. That’s ridiculous.
Brian: Well yeah, I know of the existence of 4 AM because I associate that in coming home and going to bed.
Pauline: Yeah, exactly. Yeah exactly. It's a total like turnaround, isn't it like, man, I should be going to bed now.
Brian: Oh, you moved to move to Asia then it's about midnight.
Pauline: You there?
Brian: Yeah. You just froze for a while.
Pauline: Yes, same here with you,so, Internet sucks in Australia. Sorry.
Brian: That's okay. It's not your fault. So, let's just start, let's just cut this part out and we'll go from our under what you're saying before, yeah.
Pauline: About getting up so early, that’s it.
Brian: Yeah. well you should move to Asia then. For me, for you 4AM, it’s about about 11 or 12 at night for me, which is I’m always ready at those hours anyway so It would not be so hard.
Pauline: Actually, my goal would be to move to America, so I'm on the same continent because I think it would just be a lot easier.
Brian: Just, just go to New York City. Then I guarantee you, that’s the same time zone.
Pauline: Exactly, yeah, exactly.
Brian: Then you've got the extra motivation of the, of the cost of living in somewhere like New York to really do well in copywriting.
Pauline: Yeah. I think I prefer Florida. I've definitely got the hair for Florida, you know, I could fit in very well.
Brian: Yeah, the weather’s a lot better too.
Pauline: It is, actually. Yeah, much better.
Brian: So let's see, What's, what's the more crazy and funny experiences yet you've had with Parris on these middle of the night calls?
Pauline: Well as you know, I can't divulge too much. He's like got an Nda and he's got a big budget for suing people. But the causes, I mean there are a lot of fun. I guess , one of the funniest things was I was one of the first cubs to be critiqued by human and be critiqued in front of everyone else in our group at the moment. I've got about 10 people in it. And so it's kind of like fairly embarrassing and you feel a little bit ashamed like, cause you're, you're being critiqued in front of everyone. But the thing I love about Parris is that he, he, he critiques the copy, not you as a person, which is very important for a mentor. Like if you've got a mentor who is insulting you as a person, then they’re not the mentor, you want to be around.
Pauline: And I've certainly had a couple of those. And well it didn't work and we
started seeing other people basically. But I'm back to Parris and Nicole, he, he was brutal. He critique my copy and at the end of it, he goes, so Pauline, do you need a bandaid or do you need, you know, what do you need from me? You know, it actually, I think I might have a cigarette. That was strangely satisfying. And everyone, all the other cubs just went, Wooah, and then I just started to laugh because it's like, I dunno.
Pauline: It's funny that I've got that kind of attitude because it's like, I've got a policy, you know, with mentors, never argue for, for what you're not prepared to keep. And so I'm not prepared to keep a bad copy. So it's like, Parris just gave me like a 1 million, $2 million critique that basically changed the way I'd write forever. I'm just going to sit there and say thank you and you know, sit back in the afterglow and go, well, you know, that was good. Strangely good. Uncomfortably good. That, yeah, so there's been a few of those moments and, and I guess my Australian sense of humor just surprises people from time to time and.
Brian: I think that sense of humor really helps too.
Pauline: It does.
Brian: Because a lot of people, I’ve coached a little bit. I don’t see myself a coach but sometimes the student will, we've all done this at times during our career, anyway. It just take that stuff personally. And so when somebody critiques your copy and you, you take that on as, as a, as a big critique about you, but I mean obviously some mentors do talk about you personally, which is not the way to go about what you were saying before but sometimes when they say, you know, this copy sucks. You take that to mean as you suck which, which is not the right attitude.
Pauline: It's not the right attitude. But I mean, as you said, some mentors get personal or, I
mean I actually had a mentor called me retarded once and I think that was the moment that I realized that we would break up. You know, I was, I was an officer in the army and so, you know. I was commanding troops and you know, I guess in the army and this goes, this goes back to mentoring is that you don't always get posted into a, into like a unit where you're going to lock everyone or, or people are going to be high flyers. In fact, some of the places I went
to, you know, that the previous officers’ comments of the soldiers was these people are oxygen thieves. You know, you'd be better just to wait for them to be discharged.
Pauline: I walk in there and I start to find out, okay, what are their strengths? What are their weaknesses? How can I bring out the best in them? And that's the way I see mentoring that's, and I'm a mentor myself now and that's the way I like to bring out the best in people. And I know that even when I was in the army, you don't belittle people, you don't put them down if you want to get the best out of them, you know, no one can come from an empowered place if they’re put down as a person, like don't like the behavior, don't like what they've done, but it's, you know, getting nasty or unkind to the person. Otherwise you just shut everything about them. So, I mean, copywriting, you know, they need to, you know stick to the copy and not, you know, say, what are you retarded because you wrote that? it's like, ahh,ahh no.
Brian: Yeah, it's a, it's a strange thing for somebody to say, you know, when you're paying money and you're expecting them to lift you up to a new level.
Pauline: Yeah. And also, I mean, I used to do NLP and one of the guys said to, one of his
favorite sayings was, you know, feedback is the breakfast of champions, right? At the same time, although we're paying mentors or sometimes we're not paying them, but especially the ones we’re paying, you know, I don't want them to sugarcoat it. I don't want them to tell me that I'm good if I'm not. And I have had mentors that just go, oh Pauline, you know, you're so talented, you’re such a good writer. And I go, yeah, that's cool, but wait, can I get better? And
they go, no, you can’t get better.
Pauline: Then I go to the next mentor and the go, man, you are not as good as you think you are. And it's like, whoa. All these mentors said that I was, and then I get to Parris, he goes, yeah, you're, you're a good writer. But you know, you've got a lot of work and I'll tell you what, being mentored by him I thought I could write and some days I just sit there and I just go.
Pauline: I think I'm deluding myself seriously. But, it, all that feedback just makes you better. But, as I said that feedback is the breakfast of champions but you don't want to be eating fruit loops. You want that old brand or the brand stuff that just keeps it cleaning up from time to time and gets rid of the stale, sort of stagnant, you know, place that you are,
Brian: Yeah, yeah, got fruit loops now and then good for a change.
Pauline: Yeah. Instead of putting sugar on your breakfast, you put fruit loops on
Brian: Yes, that’s strictly a phrase with a hefty dose of reality.
Pauline: Yes that’s exactly it. Yeah, exactly.
Brian: So, how do you think, your copywriting itself in your career would be if you tried to go it alone instead of having these mentors guiding you?
Pauline: I'll be honest, I think I wouldn't have got past the first year. There's just some stuff that was going on in Australia at the time that I was starting and as a female, I was told that females don't make good copywriters, which is pretty, pretty negative and I've never been one to buy into that kind of gender thing anyway cause I was in the army.
Pauline: It's very masculine-based and usually I just let that kind of stuff roll off, you know, water off a duck's back. But that's sort of
stuck a bit. So then I just got hungry and it's like, okay, so if I can't find the mentors or the, the guidance that I need in Australia, then I’m going to have, have to go offshore. And that's when I started to look outside of Australia because there was kind of like looked like a pecking order and I went, you know, I'm not going to survive this.
Pauline: So let's just see. And I, I dunno, I'm kind of intuitive and I just followed the guidance that I have and then I'm given, and I was told to look outside of Australia and fortunately I did and I found, Started to find the mentors that are needed. And the funny thing is that the mentors that I've been mentored by, they're the people who have run the courses that the people in Australia that they've done that done the courses were, I've been mentored directly by these people.
Pauline: So it's pretty, pretty cool, you know, and I think that's a big thing
is never wait for the mountain to come to you, go to the mountain, you know, I went over to America, been trained by Clayton, Parris, obviously. Carline Anglade-Cole, Ted Nicholas, just the spread everyone really, that's anyone. And I would say that to boast or impress people, I'm just saying that get off your butt.
Pauline: Cause here's the thing, people say to me, you're so lucky being mentored by Parris and I'm going, but how does a woman from Australia get mentored by someone like Parris when there's people on the same continent as him, that can't even get close to him. And it's whole strategies. Like if you want it to happen, you make it happen. Get out of your own way and stop making excuses.
Brian: That's a really good distinction that you're talking about. You know, making things happen rather than just waiting for the mountain to come to you because you can buy a million different courses and there are coaches, yeah, pitching, mentoring left, right and center. It's easy to sign up with any anyone, but was, and this is probably the case with all the big names you mentioned it, was Parris, somebody who you targeted and just went after and you, you knew that this is a guy who could help you break through the next level.
Pauline: Yeah, I stalked him as in not as in stalker. I stalked my prey heavily, I knew everything about him. And, I actually went to the Titans of Direct Response in 2014 with the, the thing that I wanted to meet Gary Bencivenga, tick, to meet Parris, tick, meet Dan Kennedy, all the, all these guys, tick, tick, tick, tick. The only person I didn't meet was Clayton Makepeace because he wasn't there. He was supposed to be, but then,he was still on my list.
Pauline: So I sought after him. But when I sat down and I had, I had lunch with Parris, I said to him, Parris, what do I need to do to be a copy cover of yours? And he goes, well, I'm not taking any, so bad luck or, yeah, that's all right. That's what you say now but you know, in the future. So then that was 2014. 2015, I went to the AWAI bootcamp and Parris was there and I went up to him and I said, Hey Parris, taking any cubs yet?
Pauline: He goes, no, I think I will be for a while, well, okay, no problems. And then I
thought, cause everyone's like standing around doing the hero worship thing. And don't get me wrong, I respect him and I honor him, but you know, that's not going to make an impression because it's like everyone is in a sea of sameness. So I said to him, oh Parris, did you know that I can actually read palms and he goes, get out, can yah? And I’m like, yeah I can. So I said, give me your hand.
Pauline: So he sort of like hesitantly gave me his hand and I said, you know what, looking at your hand now I can see that you're going to have a female copy cub from Australia in the future. Anyway, everyone around me just went what? You know like woah! And then he just started to laugh at me. Anyway. That's really good. That's, yeah, that's really good. So I'd worked out a way to stick in his mind then the next thing.
Pauline: Yeah. So then the next year I saw him at another event. It was, when I went over to be trained by Clayton, Parris was there and I said Hey Parris, how's a copy cub thing going? He goes, aw, if you want to be like on the waiting list, here’s the email, he goes, send me an email and I went, I've got my phone out and said, what's your email address?
Pauline: I'll send it right now, on the spot I sent him an email because there's people want to know that you're keen now. I mean, how many people go up to them and say, oh, can I be mentored by you? And then they do Jack Shit and don't do anything about. Be memorable. You know, I actually even didn't know whether he was a paid mentor or a free mentor, but by the way if I'm paying money but you pay him soul. So that's a lot more expensive.
Pauline: But yeah, so then, a couple of months later I saw him at the AWAI
bootcamp again. And I just went up to him and said, hey, Parris is hey, as those expecting me to ask and I went, I'll catch you later. And I didn't even mention anything about the, the thing cause I was, I knew I was on the list. And then just before Christmas that year, I got an email, Hey Pauline, if you want it to be a cub, read this book, get back to me and we start next year.
Pauline: And I went, woah, you know, that took a couple of years to happen. But if it, if it's important to you, invest the time, work out a way to be different, to stand out, to show that you're serious and show that, show that you're the kind of person that they’re going to want to invested their time. Cause even if it is like free mentoring of paid mentoring, these people, they're working copywriters, they're actually investing their time and effort in you. You need to be worthy of that investment. So make sure you show up and show people that you're that.
Brian: Yeah, because I mean, that’s a good point as well when you’re choosing a mentor because just on that, you know if somebody charges say 10 grand for a three month mentoring program, which is quite common. You know, 10 grand could be a sales page that can complete in two weeks, whereas they may just invest in you for three months.
Brian: So we need to make sure that you are appealing to them as a student because when copywriters get to anywhere near the top, you know, they can pick and choose who do they mentor.
Brian: But, but the, the campaign that you mounted overall is just as amazing. You know, if only everyone would would put that amount of thought and effort into any marketing campaign. Yeah. Knowing your customer, finding out everything about them, meeting those needs, those are the building blocks of any successful campaign. And that's exactly what we repeated touches.
Pauline: Yeah. Well, as you know, I mean I was actually was a marketer before I was a copywriter. I just got into copywriting because no one could write copy for my business. That didn't make me sound like I was a charlatan freaking lunatic. So that's how I got into copywriting. But yeah, you're right. Everything, you know, you read the, the masters like Chet Holmes and he had his wishlist 100 and however many touches Jay Abraham and they would send like lumpy mail and it would escalate each month that they said it or each time. And so I basically did that each time I, I met Parris,
Pauline: I’m just lifting something else that was memorable. And I don't think he's regretted it yet cause I still leave him with stuff that's memorable. Yeah. Don't ask me to tell everyone a joke at like 4:30 in the morning. I died a thousand deaths because the only joke I could think of on this cub call one morning was, it had the C word is the punchline and I died a thousand deaths, cause I’m thinking, man I know hundreds of jokes and the only thing I can think of at 4:30 in the morning is a C word, my God, I'm going to get kicked off this course. But they all loved it. They thought it was frigging funny. And I'm Australian, so apparently we say that word all the time. The C bombs.
Brian: Yeah, It means that we love someone when we say that word.
Pauline: Exactly. It's always the word that goes before it, whether, you know, whether it's an insult or a compliment.
Brian: Yeah, true true. But if we call you mate, that means you’ve done something wrong.
Brian: Listen, mate.
Pauline: Yeah, mate.
Brian: Yeah, yeah cool. What would you do differently if anything? You know over the course of, about when you first started copywriting, when you found that these mentors, you know, is there anything that really stands out?
Pauline: I'm not sure that I would do anything differently. I think the thing is that I’ve backed myself from the beginning, and I'm, I'm lucky I've got a partner who's backed me in, has been happy to invest in me, who’s basically for every dollar that we've put into my copywriting education, we’ve at least got five, maybe $10 back. So it's a, it's a really quick return on investment. I think looking back on my life, maybe, if I had, have been able to find copywriting earlier, I might have, I don't think I still would have met Gary Halbert.
Pauline: I would love to have met Gary Halbert. He's like one of my absolute freaking heroes. But you know, like you being friends with them bonding and Kevin and, and getting to, you know, get the stories straight from them. And, you know, I know that they've given you a little memento of, of galleries and I've got a shirt of his, the law, so you know, but, yeah, maybe just to find copyrighting a little bit earlier, but having said that, I'm happy with where I am right now. I think everything's just hitting the right note and I'm very happy.
Brian: Yeah, yeah. That's cool. Cool. And I know someone like you is not just a taker there, a giver as well. So I like you mentioned before that you were, you were a mentor as well. So are you taking on new clients at the moment?
Pauline: I've just taken on a new mentee. So yeah, it's usually by application. We have to
make sure that we're a right fit, I’m not the kind of mentor that will just promise the world. And I've got this thing, you know, they promised me the world and they showed me your anus. You know, I want to bring out the best in people.
Pauline: And I think with, to be honest with all mentoring, there is a point where it's just done and you need to either have the mentor or you say, I think that's it. So if people want to be mentored for a month, two months, not really a month, they
don't learn enough in that time, three months, six months, a year, that's up to them. I'm happy to take them on the journey. So yeah, I do. I do take people every now and then.
Brian: So in that case, how, how do they get in touch with you and find out more about that?
Pauline: Just go to my website, thecopyalchemist.com/mentor and I've got some copy up there. As I said, it's usually not by invitation and usually by application. And we'll see that we’re a could fit, and I’ve tried to make it as affordable as I a can. I know that I'm actually undercharging, I'm embarrassed to say that I undercharge, but you know, I want to, I remember what it was like when I started out, you know, everything was way expensive and I was just so freaking hungry. So, you know. Yeah. Just until they can get there, get on their feet.
Brian: I know. Check that link on the page. Here's why, If you're listening on Itunes,
go to geniusesofcopywriting.com and I'll have a link there or the site that Pauline just mentioned or I’ll drop the link up on the page. And I strongly recommend that anyone does that, that really wants to go to the next level of their, of their copywriting career.
Brian: Because I know Pauline personally, I know some of the clients that she's worked with, at some of that she can't talk about and some of the amazing successes that, you know that, that she's had in the field and anyone that's anyone that's certainly in the information from some people like Parris and, and Ted and Clayton and make piece in all of that. You know, just to, to get a sample of that is definitely worth money. So, I highly recommend that you do that.
Pauline: And I just write copy as well if anyone's interested in that, I love it.
Brian: By the way she also does that
Pauline: By the way I write copy. Yeah. it’s actually for Alternative health. I love it. You know, writing copy is my happy place, basically.
Brian: It's like, it's like the old saying, those who can't do teach that, that's for old sportsman and the people doing sports but for copywriting, we do and we teach.
Brian: So, so yeah, and everyone should definitely do that. And I really want to thank you for coming on and sharing all this information, but it's really important to get it for us to get a direction when we're looking for somebody to take us through that journey of copywriting because there are a lot of pitfalls, but which are, these mentors can steer us around.
Brian: They can really help us grow into the best version of ourselves over a shorter period of time. So it's a real shortcut to success. So thanks for coming on. I appreciate that. We'll have you back on the show at some point as well to talk about the actual copywriting as well. So if you're up for that, I'm up for that and we'll do this thing.
Pauline: Yeah, let’s do it, yeah thanks Brian. Thanks for listening.
Brian: Totally the same, Bye.
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