Announcer: Welcome to the Geniuses of Copywriting podcast, a peek into the minds and strategies of the world's greatest copywriters, marketers and persuasion experts. And now, here's your host, Brian Cassingena.
Brian: Hey guys, welcome back to the Geniuses of Copywriting podcast. It's a real treat today, because I've got a good friend of mine, Lori Haller, who is going to take us through some really interesting aspects of copy as it relates to design because as we know, for many years we've actually relied on Ad Data designs especially online and that's been working, but Lori, I really appreciate you coming on the call and sharing this stuff with us today because it's an interesting one that's really gathering of my mentors. So please, thank you for having me on this call and let's get right into this.
Lori: Yeah, that sounds good, Brian and thanks for having me on the call. You know, I enjoyed meeting with you when I was over in Kuala Lumpur after meeting with some of my clients in Singapore and David and I came over and shared the day together and some ideas. And that's when I think things started brewing between us just in talking about the relationship and importance of the marriage of copy and design together.
Lori: You know, this really, really important. So just my background maybe that's helpful for you to know. So I knew what I wanted to do in high school. I was lucky enough to get a gig with my good grades in order to go to a free paid like junior college during high school for design, Commercial Art, Marketing and then I went to a variety of colleges for a design type, biography, marketing, all those types of things that you need and then just work my way through the top companies in Washington DC, learning under the masters that I could find there.
Lori: I would seek them out. And so I was very excited about that whole journey. So at the beginning, you probably know this already, but this is where the difference or the change came in. So, I was loving just that design for design sake that I was doing. And jewelers, you know, Cadillac, Black Starr and Frost, all the Hyatt hotels, high end luxury items.
Lori: But then once people started feeding me projects where they would report back during the weekly meeting or whatever. Hey Lori, that new design you did, gosh, that increased attendees by 5,000 people this year. What's going on with that? Hey Lori, that ad you did, I saw that you did that twist or you did a test or boy that is really working, we're gonna to do that again. So that got my hair on the back of my neck standing up for some reason that made me excited.
Lori: So, you know, I've spent from that day until now investigating how I can get really intimate with the product, the audience, the copy, the offer, you know, using psychological behavior, science, technology, that hard hitting copy, properly done, the design, the colors, all of those things formulated properly, right cart page, right order page, whatever it is to get their responses, to make them say yes. You know, that has just been my number one goal all these years. And I'm really excited to say that I just love every single day.
Brian: And that's important. What the listeners to this show really be interested in is what you've mentioned a few times is about the results that you're getting from this. You know, because we have seen typically the battle between their response on one side and branding on the other side and the branding is about the imagery and the presentation and everything. Whereas, you know, the direct response stuff that we've been using, especially over the last few years in the Internet world have been what we've relied on.
Brian: But, and as it happens as we record this speaking at an event in Europe with the people like John Carlton and that, but the sales page for that is well it looks reasonable, it's still just that basic sort of direct response layer, which definitely works. But the question I have for you, Lori, is how are we, how far along are we moving to a place where the design matters just as much as the copy, if not more. And are the days of those old plain designs online, are they over? Or They still got some life in them?
Lori: Yeah. You know, in answer to that last question, um, we have been doing some very serious and deep dive testing, both in health, beauty, finance and investing online and off. Right now, there are some products and maybe, uh, in the investment world, for example, a guru's or you know, investment guru and services and offers online that are still requiring, uh, you know, a very simplistic approach, uh, more like an main, basic, bold helvetica headline and this look for that, you know, in a simple card pinch. But underlying all that, I must like underlined in bold this, that even if it is simplistic and it's winning, it's done mindfully. And with that, I mean like when I go into a project like this, I will do what I have formulated, you know, for like 30 years. And that is my three step copy review. So I read the copy in a certain way that I've figured out works best and that is stepping in the shoes of the reader.
Lori: You know, you'd be calm. The reader, I also read it just to read and make sure I understand everything. I make a printout of it, I read it, I find hot spots that excite me, cold spots that, you know, I don't want to read anymore. Words that stick out, maybe repetitive words thinks that I don't understand, they're on too high of a level, um, you know, and then becoming that reader. And then lastly, the third way is just like reading it with my marketing eyes and making sure everything is aligned with the style of copy and um, you know, again, speaking properly to my reader. So that's the first thing I do. So no matter what it is, whether it's online and I'm going to do something very simple because I realized that that's what resonates without you know, audience or whether it's print, you know, I understand the copy and I work with the copywriter and the client and make sure that I really am on point with how I project the word.
Lori: So yeah, you're absolutely right. Some stodgy, understated plain campaigns are winning. I also have, you know, medium level, solid headline, a nice visual on the top and eyebrow, a ticker timer countdown always, you know, on this particular style. Visual's always down the right hand edge. You know, there's many little, um, maybe 10 or 15 best practices that in my agency, we know works. So, you know, there are more elaborate ones even that are working with videos, a moveable gift, photo visuals. Um, it just depends. So you don't just randomly say like, you know, it's, it's Wednesday, you know, and feeling like I want to use a dark blue and no photos that it specifically chosen based on, you know, analytics pass testing, research and that, like I was saying in the beginning, like so much of my day is spent on psychology and the behavioral science and says behind how Schumann's interacts. So I hope that's helpful at least a little bit.
Brian: It is very helpful. I mean a regular listeners to this show will be very interested in getting into the psychological stuff cause that's what, that's what we, uh, you know, lots of study of its thinking. And, uh, um, so I was hoping that you could expand on that. How, how does, uh, how does a copywriter or a marketer, um, start to understand the psychological aspects of design where we're used to doing it for, uh, for a copy perspective. But how do we, how do we, uh, get those insights from a design perspective?
Lori: I use some technology for that. So I use like hot jar, you know, heat maps, video maps laid on top of like a sales page for example. And then I reviewed the analytics behind that and I see, you know, if you're familiar with some of these tactics you will see bright red and orange where they hang out a lot. And then, yeah. So I try that at first so I can understand what is getting this person excited, what are they not even looking at it all. And then I formulate a series of tests specifically designed to use that knowledge. So for example, I realized that for this one report and book giveaway and product, it was kind of like on the investment level. That said, for example, I noticed that they kept hanging around by my viewing of these videos around those visuals, like at the beginning.
Lori: So I decided we decided to go ahead and put a link underneath there after a while. After a little ways down, we don't want to immediately, MMM assume they're ready to order. Obviously we wouldn't even want them to order. We must invite them in properly. At those top 12 critical in inches of the online sales campaign, we must nail them down, duct tape them down, force them down onto the page and make it so easy to read by the use of our exact copywriting and our font, how large it is, the indents dense, how far it is away from the wrapper, then those visuals. So we must hold them on enough, uh, so that they can trust us. Then when we feel like they know enough about what we're talking about and then they can trust us, then we start feeding them like a little nugget.
Lori: You know, here's this book I'm going to offer you. Oh, here's the link here. We've also, my business partner, Tom Burgee, years ago when we were working with Clayton on a huge landslide winner, he coded this dropdown, right reserve button that you can control. When it pops up, it'll pop up on the bottom of your phone. It'll say reserve now, or yes, I want my hair products or you know, I want this joint pain relief, whatever it is. And so we use that, um, in combination of when we math will magically like place these reports with these links. So we have looked then at the statistics and we've noticed, oh, they're hitting here. Oh, they're hitting way down here. Oh, they're waiting to the very bottom. They want to wait and see how many juicy reports they can get, for example. So you just try things so that you can learn that it's not a guessing game anymore. This is, you know, numbers and analytics and technology and thinking behind it. So I'm hoping that makes sense and gives you some, um, ideas of how to keep your reader engaged.
Brian: Yeah, it does scientific, this is because a lot of people, um, uh, who I've spoken to all the branding and design side of things, uh, uh, a lot of their stuff is based, you know, on the, on the vision of whoever's in charge and you know, they think they think to themselves. So, uh, with my branding guidelines. So that means I want to, uh, this, this element here and these different colors here. But, um, the way that, uh, um, that you've done it, uh, is, is, uh, by using the scientific principles, which, which we love so much to getting to getting through it, using these tools to, I found out what's actually working with the visitors to these sites.
Lori: Yeah. There's no messing around. It's really mandatory that we gain access to as much knowledge as possible and then we use it to our advantage. That is not to say though that all the branding and all that past design and the logos and the looks and the colors in the field, you do have to get into that. Cause I'm say for example, I'm working on a like a CBD oil from this particular company and they're known for this and they have this, you know, 90 day guarantee and here's those testimonials and this is the look and you must like look back at all that is that they're seeing online. What are they seeing in print? When you send them those products in a box, what are the words, the feelings, the look of that welcome kit. For example, hey, here's your first CBD products, your first prostate products, your sex product, whatever it is.
Lori: Welcome aboard. We can't wait to have this lovely long, everlasting lifetime value relationship with you. Here's how we're going to treat you top notch. So, so the look and the brand, the guarantee, the service, the customer service, how that person sounds on the phone when they say, Hey, we'd love to place your order. Let me, you know, all that adds up. Most companies, you know, it's like, it's kind of embarrassing to say this, Brian, but it's like any relationship. I know you've had relationships in the past, you know those ones where it's like love at first sight. Everything's Hunky Dory for a couple of weeks and then you know, you like
Lori: aren't interested anymore in any, don't try harder whenever. So, so you have to think like that. And you, these are your customers. You're inviting them in this way. You're treating them this way. You're showing them these colors, this logo, you know, the stability and trust behind your company. You can't forget about them after they finally click. Yes. It must keep wining and dining them. What else did they need? Send them a survey, get them on the phone, send them something free, you know, so it's not just one thing, Brian. And that's what most people, you know, they're like, oh, I'm going to pay $25,000. I'm going to get Joe Schmoe the fanciest copywriter in the world. He's going to do it. Yep. We got Lori, you know, she banged it out of the park with this new online sales page. And then, you know, everybody forgets about all the other things and then you're not going for that big lifetime value. We want to keep them on and sell them again, again, and again and again. And uh, that's probably the biggest tip. MMM. It's not this, it's not that. It's losing sight of every single way you touch them. The relationship. Yep.
Brian: Yeah. Really interesting. Like, uh, if they, uh, basically, you know, you can put a lot of effort into the design of, of a front end of the, of a marketing system, but when they get inside and start to, um, start to consuming the stuff and, and, uh, you know, all the different moving parts, you know, if that, if that's not aligned then, then they're starting to think, you know, um, what kind of operation is this? Is they're just give me, give me an on the front end with something sexy. But, um, once, once they've got my money, you know, that starting to cut corners. So
Lori: yeah, you're absolutely right. It's like shenanigans. You can feel it online. Like, you know, when you look at 10 different things and then you decide on this one product to, maybe you need new jeans or something. So you're looking and you're looking for price, but you want them to last a long time. And so you look at all this fancy stuff and then you decide, look, they come in, the bag is ripped, and then they don't look very good and oh, they're way bigger. Or you know, it's going to be like, not only am I turning them back in, I want my money back, but I'm never going to order the sweatshirt or the shoes or anything else from me. So most people are doing that. Like I see people working on projects and we'll do this huge winner. The copy is right, it's resonating.
Lori: Behavioral science has been put into place, the perfect price. Then I'll find out it's winning like crazy. And then later we'll find out like, well wait a minute. After people get their thing in the mail and then they start reading, these reports are taking this vitamin or something like that, then I'll investigate deeper and, and I'll be like, oh, that free book you were offering. And they were so excited to get it comes in this beat up old container and then there's some s sorry, written letter. Nobody thought about the letter. They're just like, Yep, we got the sale, we're just going to, Yep, here it is. It's one page. It's kind of crinkled. So I asked to see things like that and I'm like so like disappointed. So I'm not different than anybody else. Like you're disappointing people after you spend all that money and time and effort.
Lori: So just clean up your act and make sure it is just like you said, everything has to align. If you're known for your top notch knowledge and editorial finesse, you best be getting your editorial people in shape and make sure they perform and they're doing things professionally. If you're known for your Aloe So-and-so thing that's in your supplement, you better made sure that when it arrives, it looks this way. It does react this way. You send some testimonials along, you get in touch with them again. You know, so people are only doing like 8% of the whole thing and they're thinking, oh, we've got this great winter and they're just ruining the chances of their company growth. So it's really a much bigger, bigger, better process if you look at the whole big picture, I believe. And um, so that's kind of what sets us, you know, and, and my thinking and strategies and, and my agency a part I believe, is that right? We don't just fix that one tagline. We look at the whole big picture, if that makes sense.
Brian: It does. Because we have the same battle would be creating marketing ecosystem. Different wants to have a sexy front end and, and the uh, the, Oh, the funnels and click funnels and everything. But um, but what they're doing is they're paying for all this traffic and they're doing the expensive parts and, and getting a customer on the front end, but, uh, dropping the ball when it comes to a marketing on the backend. And then once you've got that customer, you know that that's your assets to grow and nurture. And uh, it's uh, you know, it's not just about the, the copy and the marketing systems on the backend. It's about the whole experience, which is what you're talking about.
Lori: These are people like, I think what's happened is like a million years ago, our grandparents, like they would go to the store, they would see somebody there, they would ask for something. That person would smile at them, they would answer their questions, they would show them three things. It's my, my grandpa picked one that he bought it. And then, then my grandpa would go back in the stores, see the person, they'd say like, hey, how about that cold medicine work? You know, or whatever. And yeah, so it's the same thing, but now we can't see anybody and it's so sterile and it's online, but you still have to think about like that is really still happening emotionally. So you have to find like interesting and creative strategies and tactics to make somebody still feel just like that. If you could put that in your mind when you're working on either the copy, the offer, the email, whatever it is. And remember there's a person you must touch them. You must make them fall in love with you, stay in love with you and want to keep ordering or are saying yes. Like I think that'll be a game changer for a lot of people if they just wake up every morning and address all of this that they do, whatever part it is differently.
Brian: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, some of them who has noticed this good at that. And uh, this is, um, uh, an interesting niche is the guy at night. Uh, uh, Travis, I don't know his last name, but he has a business called fight smart, which is that boxing training and mixed martial arts training. And I bought some of his products and now I've been watching the videos and uh, and uh, his whole personality shines through on, on the, um, on the back end as well. You know, it's, it's coffee and, and systems are really designed to, um, to carry that through and really be, be quite person on the backend as well, you know? Yeah.
Lori: So yeah, one who doesn't love that link and I would love to meet him too and if you interview him, I would love to get it.
Brian: Yeah, I'll try. I'll try to interview him because he sees his personality really shines through in his email copy as well. So it's quite interesting.
Lori: Like that's, that's really, I believe what's going to separate the boys from the men, if you will. And whether I'm working on a finance package or supplement or beauty or whatever it is, it doesn't matter. I'm constantly researching in the background. Like I just ordered from, um, the harvest place. It's,
Lori: of course, I can't think of it now that I'm on our call, but it's like a healthy harvest. It's something that is shown on Instagram. There's a video. You just put these, all these ingredients that are ganache in this exact cup. You add like almond milk and you blend it up and you're good to go for the whole day. So I order people's items, I review them on Instagram, Facebook, you know, whatever it is. Then I get their packages and I review them and see what made me click. Yes. It's pretty expensive, but it's amazing. And it's been about a month now, and they've treated me like their own best friend and a superstar every step of the way. I got the APP. I know when my products are coming. Um, everything looked good. Everything's so, it matters. Like they could have dropped the ball like a lot of the people I work with and that's why I'm there to help them. And, but every single step of the way, they're surprising me. It's exciting. I can't, I like think about them, so I don't know. That might help.
Brian: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, uh, give me the, uh, the link later on. I'll post it up in the, in the resources because that's a really interesting one for people to go and study its well companies who, uh, you know, um, uh, care enough to uh, to continue that all the stuff through to the backend because it's so easy to, uh, like I was saying to sign a 60 front end but um, it's so, it's so a cold that you mentioned that these are real people because uh, that's, that's what we often forget about, especially once we get, get them as a customer, you know, this is the portion that people can ask themselves, am I, am I treating my customers well enough or do I just take them for granted now that they'd given me money?
Lori: Yeah, no, that's exactly it. It makes you wonder and if it makes you wonder, I just, it's daily harvest. I'm sorry. And how silly of me you drink it daily, but it makes you wonder, it makes you scratch your head. It makes you say like, wait a minute, I'm starting to feel some red flags. Like they said, this person was going to give me this and then I was going to learn how to do this and boy I feel disappointed right about now. And um, they feel that people that I work with a lot of times, they just don't want to be honest with themselves. I will ask these point blank in our meetings and I'll say like, you know, we'll, how did you treat them and how did they like that and what did they do when they responded to this? Or when you twisted that headline around and it was more like this and those are all the things that we must stay on top of. Now it matters and you know, I can go to 50 different places to buy that fancy new pair of shoes I want to wear to that party. And in the end they'll probably all bubbled down to be kind of the same price and doesn't that, but am I right? Like how you treat me, it really does matter these days.
Brian: Yeah. I think it's often a case of biting off more than we can chew because they see when we know marketing you're in. And if we know copywriting or if we have a, uh, a, a, a good copywriter working on the front end, you know, we can, we make all these claims and, and it sounds great. So we are, we think, you know, we'll, uh, we'll make these clients and we'll just, uh, um, we just backed him up later when we, when we deliver the products. Um, I think you often walk a, a, um, a fine line there as to, you know, uh, what do you expect that you'll be able to, uh, um, provide, uh, on the back end, um, uh, in regards to the clients that you're making and do you sometimes end up just hoping that, uh, that people are not too disappointed that I, that is, uh, uh, yeah. Yeah, that is, that is a past fraught with danger that, that, that we off, we often walk it in, in business and uh, it's, it's how people go out of business I think sometimes.
Lori: Oh, definitely. Like trying to cut corners and be cheap about something and not think it through and pretend like no one's gonna notice. You're just pretend like it's your grandma. Pretend it's your best friend, your mom. How would you treat them? Like would you really do that or not provide that or not apologize if you were late or, um, yeah, I think people have gotten lazy and are forgetting again, I think I'll say it again, like so you can't see them. So all the coder is doing, or the designer or the copywriter or whatever, they're just doing this stuff all on their computer, right? Yeah. They're just doing it. You're just dialing it in. This is a lot of things I get. I'm like, okay, I've seen this people where there's absolutely no feeling involved in this and you're just cookie cuttering your template in your, you know, why even bother? You're wasting all this time and money and effort. Really. If you just took a step closer and remembered that these are real people and they have desires and needs and that's why they want to buy a product that I bet you could skyrocket. Sales if you just took a couples seconds and instead of turning left, you know, you went down the right hand path.
Lori: That makes sense.
Brian: Yeah, it does. So what are the steps that people can take if they think that, uh, if, if, if, uh, if, uh, um, if somebody has a business and they think that, you know, um, the, uh, the, the, the customers, uh, might not be, um, you know, overjoyed with things that are happening, uh, jobs to some of the, what we've been talking about. What are some of steps that they can take to sort of start looking into this and start fixing it up?
Lori: So what you could do,
Lori: you want to always be in touch with like your customer service department and get feedback from them all the time. It could be little teeny things like, Hey, I've heard for customers say that third report was missing or something. Wait a minute, can we get somebody to look at that? So I dunno. Um, if there's like an 800 number to call and then most of the orders are taken on phone, for example, you could talk directly to that person, have a nice conversation and just find out, hey, what are these people saying? Are they saying Nice things? Is it easy to upsell them, cross sell them on the phone? What's going on with these people? And then have them get in touch with you. For example, Brian, this might be helpful. Hey, hey, if you guys need, or if you experience or know or see something that's changing, can you let us know?
Lori: And you can also look at sales and orders. All of a sudden are people not ordering? And you know, I'm saying yes, maybe you just did this new campaign and the new campaign, it got so many orders, but like three weeks later, every people were canceling left and right. Like really stop and just take a minute and look at those items. I think you know what happens with all of us. Everybody gets so darn busy and they're moving so fast. Every day we wake up and we want to look deeper, things that we want to reach out and find out and investigate, you know, the analytics, the statistics or whatever. But then a big problem comes up or whatever. So maybe just mark off some time every day to look into things, get up a reading and a feeling of, of how people are. And also, I always tell people, um, I take a test drive a lot of things all day. Every day. I try things out. I try to become the customer. I try the order form and mail it back in, you know, like that. So just become your customer. Um, I tried to meet my customer out in the good old USA. I find them, uh, places I go and I seek them out in a restaurant. I watch them, you know, I, I really get to be very, you know, intimate. I try to really surround myself with those types of people that I'm trying to sell to. So I understand.
Lori: I don't know. Those are helpful tips
Lori: Yeah. Digging deep with all this and I'm just remember that it all matters and not cut corners and there's a variety of ways to try to do things and you just really, um, one thing that works for this company, if you have the same kind of company but a little different twist it, it just might not work for them. And, and um, one thing people do is they'll just get stuck on something and they think that it's going to work forever like that and things are changing so fast as you know, that, um, I just keep my eye on the ball at all times.
Brian: Yeah. This is the problem that I think a lot of, uh, people who are entrepreneurs who have come up in recent times I've come across because say they just want to, you know, they, they've drunk the Kool aid as having this hands free business and that distance on the, on the front end and, but, uh, um, three hours is what we're talking about here is actual work. And, um, that's why it's sometimes not done to the extent where it should be because, um, we, we all do get busy. But I think, um, what the, the steps that you've covered here, so, so valuable. I think they should be done, uh, by, uh, um, by everyone. Some of them. Yeah. Some of them are in place at companies like Mine Valley, which is Charles working out where when we first met.
Brian: So they've got some of these steps in for, especially with the communication with the customer service people. So they do some of it and they've seen some real benefits to
Lori: just really reaching out and touching them and stumble across like, I think a huge point, you know, like 10 years ago, five years ago, everybody was like making these courses and things you could listen to. It's like, yeah, you can have your own company. You only have to work like one day a week, four days, four hours a week. You never have. I mean, Caroline, it's like snake oil. I mean, you have to be on top of all of this and it takes a lot of hard work. And diligence. And truly, if you're considering starting a product launch or considering trying to sell, you know, services and things to other people, it really is 24, seven. It's a lifetime. You must, you know, just be right in there next to them at all times and learning and studying and growing like about an hour or more each day.
Lori: I have to block off just quiet time to read, study, investigate, learn. It's technology, it's new processes, it's looking in psychological behavior patterns, um, testing out colors. So you see it, you can't just wing any of this. I mean, I'm sorry to break that bubble to everybody, but uh, Caroline, um, so it's like a, I can drink this one drink tonight and tomorrow I'll lose 50 pounds. Everybody knows that's not true. So, uh, yeah, stay on top of it and I know people can definitely kick some of these things into place. I will give you, um, maybe like that three step copy review that might be helpful for people to kind of just try out, see if that works them when reviewing copy and then anything else that's um, you know, helpful with some of these processes. I can even give you a list of like, I have just books everywhere in the studio and stacked up. Like I'm glad you can't see it, but, um, you know, I'm constantly reviewing things and talking with people and trying to investigate what, what might work next. So I could give you that list as well.
Brian: Yeah, yeah, I'd love that. And if, if people are listening on Itunes, you know, they can go to the um, uh, genius of a copy.com website and uh, and download these from your finger episode. Yeah,
Lori: no I don't, I don't think Brian, we ever got to say this one thing that I think is so important to you and I, and I think we talked about this when we were together and that is like, no matter what is transpired or now what has changed, like copy is always king. You know, it always will be and design queen, but that design or the visualness or the choices and the feelings that's really going up there on the top of the ladder these days and now more than ever, you really have to be on point and in tune with that. So those two, you know, just like I said in the beginning, it's a marriage. It's the coffee, the design, the visualness and the marketing. All those, you know, that cluster there, it really has to align or immediately these people are smart out there. They're going to feel it and sense it and hop off or not say yes. You have the ability and the control to win that. Yes. When that money, if you just systematically and formulae Cli do what you need to do and you know, it, it does work out every single time. It just has to align. So, um, that's like my favorite thing to think about during the day.
Brian: Yeah. One of the magic pills that people have been sold as, like I was saying before, it's hands free businesses. You know, when you're wanting to set up a serious company and really scaled that up, you need to think about all these stuffs and you need to take action on it as well. So I'm loving these apps.
Lori: Yeah, absolutely right.
Brian: Yeah. So if you're listening on Itunes, definitely go to geniusesofcopywriting.com and look for Lori's episode and I'll put these PDFs for everyone to download and they're going to be very valuable. So I really appreciate that.
Lori: No that sounds good. And also, Brian, if anybody sends you an email or a question or anything, besides doing all these exciting things every day, and you probably feel this and know this about me already, but I love to reach out to other people, give them anything I can think of that will help them.
Lori: I feel so grateful everyday to have found this passion in my life and be able to do something I really love and help a lot of people everyday, whether it's like giving them retirement investment advice, something to help them feel better, repair their memory. So, let me know, if somebody has a question, a situation and I'm here to help always and see if you can make a good go of it. Yeah.
Brian: Yeah, yeah. I love to refer people to good people out like that and and connect them that way. So yeah, I'll definitely do that. So, yeah, if I'm getting in touch with, with me through the podcast and I can make the introductions and I think, I think that some people will do that because the checklists and the PDFs, they're going to download from your episode on geniusesofcopywriting.com will be a first step for that introduction.
Brian: And it's so refreshing to find entrepreneurs who are willing to deal, direct with people. And instead of putting them through 50 part auto responder sequence and that's the way they making physical. And so it's really different to find successful people who still knows that they can take time out of that day, take time out of their day, but to actually deal with real people as other human beings instead of all this positioning stuff, which is what we've been talking about this whole time that people, real live people, that who your customers are, they're not just numbers on a spreadsheet.
Lori: Yeah. You're absolutely right. And I will key in after we're done or I'll email you a couple other sites I follow and I'll send you a couple other notes and that might be helpful for people to experience these, the way you're treated so nicely and I really enjoy my time together with you. Are there any other questions like that have maybe come up or something that you're thinking on that I can answer?
Brian: I think you've covered quite a lot on the call here today for people to think about and take action on. That's the reason, the next steps. What you've covered is very valuable? I mean I think that's a lot of work to be done by just on what we've covered the lines.
Brian: So the value that you've provided for us here today, the insights on how we can go ahead and take care of our customers to the next level is very valuable. So it's a great start for anyone and I think that this has been one of the more valuable episodes on the show that we've done so far. So I really appreciate you coming on and taking out time to share with us with these insights.
Lori: It was lovely. It's so good to hear your voice again and I'm so tickled for you and good luck to everybody and thank you again, Brian. I just really enjoyed myself. It was simply my pleasure.
Brian: Yeah, it's a privilege and an honor to have you on the show, Lori. It's been very valuable for me as well, so I've got to page full of notes here that, it'd be taking action on and, yeah, I'll look forward to seeing you again soon and thanks for your time here today.
Lori: Okay. Take care.
Announcer: Thank you for listening to Geniuses of Copywriting with Brian Cassingena. To get the full transcript in all the resources mentioned on today's show, go to www.geniusesofcopywriting.com now.