Announcer: Welcome to the Geniuses of Copywriting podcast, a peek into the minds and strategies of the world's greatest copywriters, marketers and persuasion experts. And now, here's your host, Brian Cassingena.
Brian: Hey guys, welcome back to the Geniuses of Copywriting podcast. I'm really excited today because I've got a guy on the call who is really somebody who I've been following for a little while, but he's had some massive success and he's a really, well, I don't want to say that you're an up and coming copywriter because you've been around for a while and you had some awesome results, which I love to hear more about, Justin Goff. Really ,thank you for coming on the call today, man.
Justin: Yeah, man. Great to be here.
Brian: Yeah, thanks for that. Thanks for your time. So, for those who are not familiar with you, and I guess the way that you work your email list, there'll be some out there. Can you tell us a bit about yourself?
Justin: So I definitely, I remained pretty underground for a long time. So I started copywriting. Now, this was like back in 2010 or so. I was kind of doing affiliate marketing before that. And then I transfer, I wasn't a poker niche back when the poker boom was really big. I was doing affiliate stuff there and then that kind of fell apart and I decided to get into health and fitness and those just kind of a time when Paleo and CrossFit.
Justin: I kind of saw that like this was going to be a big thing. So it was like I said, 2009 or so that kind of boomed in like, I don't know, probably like 2013 or so. But I got on that before that and had a product that I made on clickbank that I wrote all the copy. I did all the upsells, did all the traffic buying.
Justin: Basically within, took me about two months to get it dialed in. Within two months I went from literally nothing, couldn't do a damn thing. I was actually almost like broke and thinking about moving back in with my parents to turn this off around where I made like $100,000 in profit in like three months. And then just kind of started that product took off over the year, did really well that year.
Justin: And that kind of was like my first, I would say like big hit copywriting wise. But yeah, that's kind of how I got into it. Then I do little freelancing and then a couple of years ago I started a supplement company called Picture at Health Alliance and me and my partner, Allen Baylor, who also runs for Patriots, which is like the big survival brand.
Justin: We grew that from a zero to $23 million in about two and a half years and then just back in 2017, I wound up selling my share that back to him. And now I kind of focused mostly on consulting and I help other people with their copy. And then I do a couple training programs like our copying solo writer one which we talked about was stuff that I know for a little bit.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Now what's really interesting is like what you say, you are underground and that's why a lot of people haven't heard of you, but you have had some of these amazing results. Like you've created these companies out of thin air, but you have been doing the copy and the funnels for that.
Justin: It's interesting. A lot of people call me a copywriter and a lot of people call me a funnel guy. I've kinda realized that my. I've kind of realized my main specialty is really just helping people make offers, work on cold traffic. That's really what it boils down to. That's what all my clients want because they know as soon as they can make an offer, work on cold traffic, it's like printing money when you can bring in 500,000 new customers a day.
Justin: Like that just creates everything that kind of runs the business. That took me a while to learn to. Like I remember just dicking around so much with like my products and focusing on things that didn't really matter. And then one day when Patriot Power Greens, which was our big hit, really took off, it kind of went from we were doing like 20 or 30 sales a day. And then like we started to like really dialing it in. We had like, we did most of that email stuff with it.
Justin: And we got it to the point where it was doing 600, 700 sales a day and I just noticed how much revenue or profit we're bringing in because our backend was already pretty dialed in. And it just, this thing finally just clicked. I was like, Oh, if I can just dial in the front end and just keep that going, like we're just going to be rich as fuck because, the front end and the acquiring the customer is the hardest part of this business.
Justin: But once you get that dialed in and you kind of, I just kind of dawned on me, I was like, oh, this business really when you boil it down is all about customer acquisition as it really what it's about. You could fuck up a lot of other things, but if you get the customer acquisition part right, you are going to make a lot of money.
Brian: Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you that because, uh, um, I, you say you had the backend doughty and said that that was fine and then that was working. But at once you nailed the front end stuff, that's when it really took off fit. How does a person go about that these days? Because, uh, you know, um, uh, that, that's the holy grail of, of, of making any, any business really harm. So, but there's a lot of problems with the, with compliance and there's problems with, with the monetizing these front end funnels, you know. Um, so what's your trick to mastering that?
Justin: Um, so it's definitely a lot more complicated nowadays. Like couple of years ago, you hired someone like me or you're hired someone like Krista de and they wrote you a VSL and you ran it everywhere and just ran traffic to it, made a bunch of money those days. And those days are pretty much over. Um, nowadays, uh, with all the clients I work with, it's mostly, um, almost reverse engineering stuff. So it's like, okay, we want to scale on Facebook, what can we put on Facebook that Facebook is going to be okay with a that they're not going to like slap compliance wise. And that's from like an offer standpoint from a copy standpoint, uh, from everything. Then it's like, okay, then what, what can we sell as an upsell to it? Can we, if there's not, like I, I've seen great products where I'm like, there's not really a good upsell that naturally fits with this that I know is going to convert at higher than 20% at a good average order value.
Justin: So like I wouldn't even do that product cause I'm like at that first upsell is not like kicking ass. Like, this is never going to be able to scale. Uh, so yeah, a lot, a lot of it really starts with almost reverse reverse engineering and seeing a, seeing what's already working, um, that, that's step one. Figure out what's there already working for other people. Um, and then trying to figure out what you can actually do that Facebook is okay with it. Cause like I'll give a good example. So like if you're trying to do a diet program, Facebook looks very skeptically at that. Yeah. People do it. And I know I have a bunch of people that I'm friends with or people who have been to my events that have showed, uh, kinda how they're making that work. But then I have, I have friends like my buddy David Sinick who does cookbooks and the Paleo Niche basically look, looks at a cookbook very, very differently than they look at a diet program. Um, and the ability for them to scale like a Paleo cookbook or a Keto cookbook is a lot easier than the ability to scale a diet product. Cause Facebook just like I said, they look at them very different ones. Like weight loss, which is probably the most scrutinized. And yes there is. And the other one's kind of like, oh, old lady buying a cookbook. But
Brian: yeah. Yeah. Is that really the key? The other part about the episodes and reintroduce interested as well as you can, but uh, um, is that, is that really the main key thing you said something that's really changed over the last few years? Uh, like the old principles of copywriting, and I've read about this in your, in your email, new service, which is one of the few that I take time to read. Um, so this is what, this is what I've been taught over the last 15 years of writing copy is exactly the kind of stuff which is now getting banned from Facebook and other platforms. Is that a fair comment to say? That's changed a lot.
Justin: Yeah, definitely. And especially in the last six months or so. Um, so yeah, I did a big email to my list about this, how a copywriting in 2019 is not about writing the most persuasive copy and writing what you want. It's about writing for compliance on the networks. Um, and that, that got a huge response from a lot of people. When I wrote that saying either people who are really good 100% you are dead on and other people saying, Oh shit. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Because the thing is you can actually write something that's legally compliant for Facebook and they'll still ban because like it's in a format they don't like or the video's too long and they don't like, you've got to think of it almost from like the compliance people, like the people who are approving and disapproving ads on Facebook are people who are making 10 bucks an hour.
Justin: And like, like my friend Emily's who has a really popular product that runs a wall on Facebook, one of the compliance people like Sar Bsl and they're just like, why are you talking on this video for 45 minutes? People don't want to see it. And that was a little bit like the reason for disapproving. So she went back, I made like a much more gentler like watered down version of her sales page or no one's actually working. But that's Kinda like what's going on now is trying to figure out how to take that hard hitting VSL that you had that was kicking ass and make what I call kind of like a watered down direct response page that Facebook is. Okay.
Brian: So is that like a similar thing in case of weak copy that runs is better than than strong coffee that nobody sees?
Justin: That is exactly correct. And that took me actually a while too, cause I like, I would look at somebody copy that's running on Facebook, I'd be like, that's not like very good. And I'd be like, they can do this, this, this and this. And like, yeah. Eventually I came to that conclusion where I was like, well it actually doesn't matter. Like as long as it's fucking working cares, that's the reality of it works. And you can pull in 300, 500 customers a day. Who really cares what it says.
Brian: Yes. It's crazy. Yes. Um, by, you could, you could ramp up the information on the back end just once they're on your email at least, then obviously Facebook doesn't see any of that. So, uh, you know, that's, you could really monetize the backend there.
Justin: Yeah. And, uh, actually I exchanged a couple emails about this with Joe Schriefer who runs the Gore financial, which is like $300 million company now. Uh, and he was like 100%. He's like complying on the front end and on the back end we're doing the hard hitting stuff to our list. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, that's kind of the way a lot of people are moving.
Brian: Um, do you like to, like it's kind of related. Do you like to send them straight to an offer or does if you drive clicks from Facebook had to some piece of content which doesn't have any speech on it, is just faithful like that more? Or do they sort of sniff around and find the offer in there anyway?
Justin: Um, it depends. Um, they are getting much more in depth. So this is actually surprising to me. So one of the guys who was at my, uh, an event in October, a high end, like $25,000, beat your control of that. And one of the guys there, Matt Harmon, who was really, really good with Facebook ads kind of shocked me. He was like, Facebook now is actually going through every page of your funnel. Um, and there are actually also a surveying people who buy your product and see what things that, that was shocking to me. I did not, did not know. Um, but yeah, they, they're getting a little more, a lot of it also depends too on like how your relationship with Facebook is. Like if you're just running Facebook traffic and you don't have like an ad rep or anything or you're not running it through an agency that's got like a good reputation, you're kind of at a disadvantage because if you can talk directly to them, you've got a much better chance of like, okay, we know you're a good company and you can do this. Like you got to look at stuff like Beachbody. Beachbody gets away with shit that like Internet marketers can renew, never do because Beachbody is a trusted brand. Um, and there's a, that's kind of where there's, there's a ton of power and building a real brand because like I said, they let you, they'll let you run stuff that your average internet marketer can't run.
Brian: Yeah. So that, that's really the long game then building up a brand which um, not only uh, um, it valued by your customers but also by the people who are, uh, allowing you to run your ads.
Justin: Yup. Yeah. I mean there's definitely been a much more of a focus on branding with direct response companies I would say in the last year. Um, because they've realized those, whether you're running on Facebook or Google or Taboola, whatever it is, having a recognizable brand definitely changes the game.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. Cause that's writing copy for them on valley for about three years. And that bullet on direct response over the last 10, 15 years, I'm doing all the, the Webinar opt teams and all that kind of stuff. Um, but the last few years have been pretty focused on the brand. And dialing back the, the high penis of the, the old stuff they used to have and a nice band, you know, a lot of money per month and six figures a month on, on, on ads. So they've always got the rep in that. I've got the, the, uh, the relationship with Facebook in that. But, um, but yeah, they're doing the same thing. Nope, makes sense. Um, so once you get somebody, uh, let's say, uh, your, um, you'd now this part, which, which for me is, it's still something I'm still still trying to process really the fact that that's a, you know, you have to water down this copy so much.
Brian: So it's kind of thing, uh, that, uh, that the old school copywriters like me who've been doing it for a long time and you have as well, but it's something we've got to go get over it. So if we run it, if we want to use these platforms, and that's, that's a really important point that you've made here on this call, which everybody kind of needs to get. Once you've done that, if they say go through your cards, um, you know, the ops sill, um, is something where, you know, the up cells in mine, my tiny funds, I've been responsible for a big chunk of the revenue that I've made online. So, um, and when you're really doing good volume there, critical. So, um, how do you really now that outsell and how, just how important is that, uh, to your overall, uh, front end efforts?
Justin: Yeah, so I mean, the first up sell by far is the most important. Um, that's gonna make up like 80% of your actual upsell revenue right on the first upsell. Um, I can tell you from working with God, I dunno, probably 15 to 20 clients and then probably closer to 40 if you count like people are in my coaching programs. So I help on their stuff. The biggest mistake people make with upsells, uh, is not really reverse engineering it. And coming up with, uh, coming up with a PR, they basically, they make the product and they're like, okay, we have this product and this product. Let's stick one of them on there as an upsell. That's a complete wrong way to do it because the best upsells are always like really natural fits that, that blend with the front end. I'll give you an example.
Justin: In our old company we had a free plus shipping offer for our Patriot power greens supplement. It's basically like four bucks on the front end. You get like seven little sample packs of it. Um, and then the first upsell we sold them the big full sized canisters of it. Um, that's a super natural flower. It's like, Yo, you just bought the samples, do you want to buy more of the big ones? Um, and that crushes. Um, so trying to figure out a way where you can get a, a really natural flow. So like you'll see people who do this and um, so let's say somebody in Biz op who has like a Facebook ads course. Yeah, they'll do a Facebook ads course and then their first upsell would be like, why don't you get my Twitter ads course or something? And the relatives, like that guy who bought the Facebook ads course is interested in Facebook ads. Like Twitter has nothing to do with it. He'd be much better to do it. Some type of like in depth like masterclass on Facebook or like the advanced version of the Facebook course and stuff like that instead of going completely different direction.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. Because uh, um, the last product that I created with some copywriting templates and the up till that I created for that was uh, uh, me doing some VA what, three, so I've had to use the template so until we've got a very high take rate on that product as well. So, um, that seemed natural for me to, to create that product when I already had the first one, which was just the text files as much better to actually have the, the Va walkthrough. So that seem natural to me.
Justin: Yup. Yeah, that's kind of the, the idea, the kind of the two, I would say the two overall things I always go forward with upsells is one, selling them kind of more of what they just bought. Like, especially with doing physical products, like, um, you're giving them a thing of survival food, the front end, sell them a bigger three months supply of it as the upsell. And then the second one is basically trying to sell them something that makes it work faster. So whatever they bought on the front end, here's how to make it work faster or here's how to do it like more done for you so you don't have to do anything. Stuff like that. Like those are the kind of the main ways I kind of look at upsells.
Brian: Yeah. Cause I think that many examples to you, but I feel kind of marketing of copy writing course and the, the uphill is uh, like a, a traffic course. Um, I'm driving paid traffic or something. So that's probably not really a natural enough. It is another step in, in the marketing funnel because that, that's obviously why they put it there. But is that not really the sort of thing that uh, um, that is the best upsell. Okay.
Justin: Yes. I mean look a look at something like a Gora Gora sells financial newsletters. You buy the newsletter on the front end for 39 bucks or whatever it is. Um, instead of trying to sell you other newsletters or other books as the first upsell, the first up sell is a year or a lifetime subscription to that newsletter. Yeah. So something that you just paid 39 bucks for, they're like, hey, we'll send it to you for the rest of your life. And I care about what they charge. Maybe like 200 bucks or something. Yeah. Yeah. And that gets there. That's the best upsells I've ever found. And they just literally every of Gordon imprint division, there's like hundreds of them models that exact same model because it just works nonstop. Um, that's got one of the cool things with upsells and once you find something that works, like if you're in the supplement business, you find out this offer works, you can just replicate it over and over and over again.
Brian: Yeah. That's the key is not to reinvent the wheel each time. Yeah. So, um, yeah. So do you have, do you like to have, um, uh, three or four upsells? Uh, it's one usually good enough.
Justin: Um, so I would say it definitely depends. Um, I'm a bigger fan of, of trying to get as much out of like two of them as possible because obviously like upsells, piss people off. It's not anything that's like fine, it's not a good customer experience, but it's the reality of you have to have it to make an offer of work. Um, I, a lot of the stuff that we used to do had to, um, and then pretty much everything always had down cells. Uh, that's kind of an area to, are a lot of people leave a ton of money on the table. Um, if you're not doing down, you're, you're leaving pretty serious average order value on the table.
Brian: Yeah. So if at the same principle, uh, with Dan showed you can't just have something completely unrelated,
Justin: the best down cells are always kind of offering them whatever you just offered them at either a cheaper price or monthly installment payments or add like some extra bonuses that make the deal even better. Um, all that kind of stuff.
Brian: Yeah, it gets really low. I see a lot of office with, uh, you know, you've got on the sales page that the painful bunny, you've got like a, another button for payment plans. So, um, is that a scenario where they're losing money because that could be a down sell, the payment plan?
Justin: Uh, not necessarily. Um, I mean if they're smart, they've tested it and realized, okay, we had those, it helps. Sure. That definitely works with higher price stuff. I mean, if something's overlap, I was embarks like, yeah, even people who are have money, we'll take payment plans.
Brian: Yeah. And what can we be clients at mine vetting and is it always a certain percentage of payment plans that do fall through? So the full pay we, it's better. But uh, um, but uh, payment plans do tend to increase. Uh, yeah. Sounds a lot. But I was say,
Justin: yeah, give me an example of that. So, um, for the copy accelerator program and stuff and, and I are doing, um, we, we actually, we're not going to offer payment plans at first and then we'd kind of like thought about it and I was like, yeah, we'll probably get a few more people to do. It. Turns out like 80% of the people doing our program are doing the payment plans. Um, and we give them a little bit like if you pay up front, it's like instead of being 18 grand a year or it's like 18 grand a year if you pay up front. But if you pay on the payment plans, it's more like 21 and a half or so. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so they'd get a better deal if they pay up front. But like, yeah, I mean it's still like a lot of very, very successful people are just like, yeah, I'll take the payments. So that's why it definitely works.
Brian: Yeah, I've done that plenty of times myself. People that tub brand and that, you know, um, you know, if the payments are spread out over the whole year, it becomes like a membership, which is the, uh, um, the other question that, uh, that, uh, that, uh, I wanted to ask you about upsells is about selling continuity programs is as an app fill, I mean we know it's, it's hard as a front end product, um, but uh, if, if someone buys a one off product is a, is a continuity product to good up show a. So,
Justin: um, so it's a murky answer. It depends. Um, I don't, I personally don't have a lot of experience with doing that myself. I have a couple people in my coaching programs who are doing, I'm doing well. The ones I've seen that work tend to be in pretty like passionate and niches where people are going to stick. Um, so I'll give you an example. One of the guys and one of my coaching programs, uh, Caleb Osborne is in a very specific, he's a gun niche, but even a very specific part of the gun niche where like he literally sells products teaching people how to build their own guns, build like an ar 15 on your own, products like that. Um, so it's a very like hyper focused niche by like, so what of his, he'll solve these little products on the front end. It's like a DVD free plus shipping offer and then his first op, he's basically like, Yo, you bought the Ar 15 one, I'm going to give you four more of these, how to build a pistol and a glock and whatever it all guns are. He's like, and I'm going to give him to you for free if you join my newsletter, whatever. Here's a print newsletter that's like, I can't remember. It's like 50 to 75 bucks a month somewhere in there. Um, well like he crushes it with that because that's a pretty passionate niche. Or like once they start getting the newsletter, they actually stick for five or six months, which you don't really say that kind of explain breeding and most like if you're at weight loss, nobody's fucking stick in for six months on it.
Brian: Ancient and marketing it probably be the same, but definitely weight loss. You would like to rely on a, on a, on a, on a continuity. Yeah.
Justin: Very good. Yeah. I mean it's just tough in the niches where it's like such a, um, just like instant buy where they're not really looking for anything. It's tough because like, yeah, that weight loss person in three weeks, they're going to be on it if they bought your Kido book like there and be on to something else. Yeah. They're not going to end in San Francisco. The biz op if you got like real business owners, different story but off it's kind of the same way.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot, a lot of money. It'd be thought to, um, there are always a good chin, Chin and new people coming in. Yup. Um, so do you think that, uh, um, that, uh, these niches that we've been talking about, uh, and the, the, the guidelines that, that to you given us today, it's that it's that like, are they like a hard and fast things you proven over the last few years, which I know they are, but are those rules, uh, flexible or even can they be broken with the right kind of marketing and the right kind of copy or if it's just the way it is, which roles are you referring to? Like a, um, with the, uh, the fact that, uh, that, uh, weight loss is hard to fill a subscription or, um, uh, things like that.
Justin: Um, no, they definitely can be broken. I'm much more a fan of like, like in that situation, how much more a fan of getting as much average order value up front as I can. Um, because when I get the money on day one, then I can make the media buyer work a lot better. Um, whereas if I have to wait three months to break even, that really changes the metrics. Um, yeah. I mean they can be broken. Definitely. I mean some people, and it all depends on your business model. Like a business model with, uh, a couple thousand newsletter subscribers, paying you 50 bucks a month, like is a pretty damn cool business model. Dude's infinitely scalable. Um, so yeah, it really, like I said, it really depends on what you want, uh, what kind of, what your background is. Um, yeah,
Brian: yeah, yeah. Um, but, but the, I guess the, uh, the point I'm making is, is it the, the, the rules that can't be broken is the stuff, is the stuff about, uh, um, being compliant with Facebook? Um, because we are, we know now that, uh, uh, that it's better to have a compliant copy. The, that's a at least running. And are there any other options that is Facebook and Google really the only two options if you want to, if you want to scale up big on traffic, is it anything else realistic or is it just like a, um, drops in the ocean?
Justin: No, you can, you can go the other way. I mean, I know multiple people running kinda noncompliant, black hat type stuff that are doing thousands of sales a day, uh, mostly through email and less like lesser known second tier networks. Um, and they're making that work. So there's definitely, you can do the same thing on a, on like I said, I'm on the black hat side. Um, the, the problem with that though is obviously there's way more risk. Um, the true scalability would come though from Facebook and to blue, uh, Edward [inaudible] and Google pretty much.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. So as long as you stick with the, uh, the big brand name platforms, that's where, um, the best bet is if you want to scale, if you want to got a real business.
Justin: Yeah. And it depends too, like, like if you're a solo preneur and it's just you and you're making 200 sales a day and through email, like you might be happy with that because, and I are making six figures and that's great. I mean, if you've got a company that's $50 million company, it's like you can't just rely on one traffic source. Now, that's kind of been one of the big shifts I've seen over the last six months where everybody that was focusing on email and affiliates is really putting like all their eggs in the Facebook and Google display network.
Brian: Yeah. And do you ever customize any party of your funnels for different platforms or, or is it just a one size fits all?
Speaker 4: Okay.
Justin: No, they're, they're usually pretty similar. Um,
Speaker 4: okay.
Justin: Yeah, I mean, unless you're selling something that you as like an upsell where like Facebook would, would not be, sometimes there's some stuff in terms of like if you're a video auto plays, Facebook might not be okay with that. I'm like the upsell. So certain times, yeah, there is stuff that you might need to change a little bit. Spoke Nice
Brian: about the upsells as well. Yes. So then I just don't tend to, um, your, uh, free stuff actually go through
Justin: the whole thing. So if you're advertising and let's say you're selling a flashlight in the survival niche on Facebook, they're going to not only look at your sales page, they're gonna look at the next page, which would probably be your first upsell. Uh, they might look at like the page after that. Um, yeah, they, they do go a little further. They're not as picky though about the pages further down the funnel. From what I can tell, I'm like, I know people who, I know people who are running like quizzes. I have a couple of people in my coaching programs that are running quizzes that are pretty high volume and the landing page for the quiz and like the results page for the quiz, like some of those matter, but like past that Facebook doesn't really care as much because they're not going to go, there ain't go through 15 pages and get all the way to like your last thing if you have a 12 question quiz.
Brian: Hmm. Interesting. Yeah, they certainly diving a lot deeper into funneled through the night if a thought that they did.
Justin: Yeah. I was, like I said, I was pretty surprised when I found that out like last October and I was, I was kind of a wake up call to move.
Brian: Yeah. Cause I thought that just to see behind the landing page of that with adopting. But uh, but uh, I don't see that, that they're catching onto, uh, catching onto what we're doing. We've got to do the right thing on, on the whole are pages there. So what's that? What's the, what's one thing that just to bear in mind if you're, if you're, uh, running a funnel to cold traffic or something like that to whatever app you have and whatever kind of offers you have, what's, what's one principle that people need to remember?
Justin: I would say, so this is really kind of come to my mind a lot lately with, um, so like I said, I have two coaching programs. One has 10 people in it, the other one has about 55 and the 55 one, it's all copywriters and marketers. That's the one that I do is stuff. And um, and this one thing keeps coming up over and over again. And it's something that people actually don't like to hear because everybody says it. Um, and I just realized over and over, it's like, people are like, what offers should I do? What do you think this copy like works? And we're giving them feedback on it. And I realized over and over again, I'm like, these people just don't have any idea of who the customer is. They've never, not all do, they have like a vague idea, but it's like they've never actually spoken to any of the customers in person.
Justin: They've never spoken to him on the phone. It never like read through all the customer service emails because I'm like, if you were speaking to these people on a daily basis, you wouldn't be asking me what products should of, should we do or does this headline because you would have a pretty damn good idea that like, here's what they want. Like I know from working with my clients personally that the biggest thing they want is how to make an offer of work on cold traffic. It is by far the biggest thing that will change their business. It'll bring them more customers. Um, that's what they want more than anything else. And I know that because I work with tons of companies and it's very obvious to me cause that's what they hired me to do. Um, so in terms of like what I offer them, it's like that's what I offered them cause I know that's what they want.
Justin: Um, but a lot of people, a lot of copywriters just truly they don't have the in depth knowledge of who their customer is, what they really want, what's like their, what's their frustration that's like pissing them off like multiple times a week. What's the pain point that if you could fix that for them? Like all of that stuff, they just don't, they don't know that on a deep enough level. Um, and the cool thing is like if you actually figure that out, you only, if you're writing to the same market all the time, you only have to do it really. Like once you're writing for the survival market, write up a big three page thing of like, who this customer is, what his day is like. Um, what he's pissed off about who he hates, what he ultimately like dreams of having all that kind of stuff. And that completely changes the way you write copy. Yes.
Brian: Yeah, yeah. I have a questionnaire that to my clients get asked those questions, but usually the answers, um, with rare exception, I just said the flavor lance. And so, yeah. Um, one thing I always do is, is try and, and uh, and ask if I can speak to some customers are actually on the phone and, uh, and you're right, everyone, everyone says it and it's, and it's, that's because it's true, but, but nobody wants to do the work, you know, we want to see on the beach and we want to take Instagram selfies on the beach and we want to live the laptop lifestyle and, and, uh, you know, just have money for fall from the sky. But, uh, but, uh, that's not quite how it works.
Justin: Yeah. I mean, is there a saying, because I honestly had the same thing. So I've written some copy for the survival niche and um, I actually went for one of the VSLs I was doing. I went and interviewed a bunch of them cause I was doing like testimonials stuff and being in like three or four of their houses completely changed how I thought about this market and actually talking to him for like an hour I realized it just hit me like a load of bricks. I was like while I'm talking so far over their heads in terms of like what I was saying, I was like I need to bring this down and simplify it. And like I started to see like, like the survival buyer in general. It was like a very blue collar person who lives in Texas or the Midwest or whatever like that.
Justin: I kind of was writing to a more higher end like survival admires some guy who has investments and makes 200 grand a year. He was kind of more like a professional, like there's slivers of that in the survival market, but the majority, I'm like somebody buying a $1,500 generator and might be living in a trailer home. So it's like, it's a very, it's a very different buyer than what I had in my head. But like, actually, like I said, it doesn't take much, like go talk to three or four of them and you'll, you'll be a hard times ahead of where you were if you didn't do it at all.
Brian: Yeah. And if you kept a copy the, the way you run up a full, it just would have, uh, um, really struggled, just tanked, you know, because that's totally out of line with what they're thinking.
Justin: Yes. Yeah. It's very obvious too, when someone doesn't have a deep, deep knowledge of, of who that buyer is, the right copy, that's, that's okay. But it's all like very surface level. It's not really like big into, uh, the emotional kind of pain points. But yeah. No. Are there.
Brian: That's what I like about your email newsletter. You know, um, you really dive into the, uh, um, the, the fine points of stuff as much as you can in one email. But, um, but that's something that I find really valuable in. So, um, so I wonder if you can tell people how they can get on your email list. Cause I know you don't have that like at the usual pro for various herself having a sign up for one sec, please opt in here. You don't have that.
Justin: Yeah, I'm the other way I repelled people. Um, so yeah, my email list is private. Uh, you can't just opt into it. Um, and the reason I actually intentionally, I keep it small because I actually respond to people who, who emailed me back and it's more of like a high level thing. Like most of the people I work with tend to be higher level. I don't just take like noobs off to warrior forum and like put them on here. Um, but yeah, if anybody wants to get on it, it's a Justin golf list.com. You just go there and there's a, there's an application with about six questions that I actually go through all the applications and see if you're a good fit based on a very good copywriter, media buyer, business owner in the direct response niche. Uh, I let you on the list so I've got it. Yeah, you got it right out. I think it's like 720 people. Uh, those super small lists. My Buddy ins family always tells me that I have the most profitable per per subscriber list on the planet.
Brian: Yeah, yeah. If you calculated your value per subscriber, your guess will be insane.
Justin: Yeah, It was pretty high.
Brian: So I'm going to check a link to that on the site and if you're listening on iTunes or whatever, just go to justingofflist.com but don't go there thinking you're going to sign up and get it and get a free pdf that is going to gather dust on your computer. Like most opt ins, this is an application process and you will have to actually pass master. But if you get in, it's definitely worth it. So I highly advice you get to justingofflist.com and, if you can, if you qualify then you can get on the list.
Justin: Yeah, man. Yeah, it's interesting, it's a very high quality list in the sense that probably every big name in direct response that you would know is on there. Craig Clemens from Golden Hippo, Joe Schriefer, my old partner, Alan Baylor. Every Chrissa de [inaudible], all the big copywriters, it's a pretty, pretty packed. What I find really cool is like when I talk about things that I kind of see happening, and then I get responses from 10, 15 people who are like running $100 million companies and they're like, yeah, we see that too. That's always cool to kind of stay on the cutting edge of like really what's going on.
Brian: Yeah. And I wasn't just blowing smoke up your ass before. It really is one of the few email lists that I take time. You know, when an email comes in, I sit down and read it and it's always got something pretty valuable on that. So, yeah, to get on the, if you can get on the list then get on it. So I'd like to finish off by inviting you to come back another time because one other thing I wanted to talk with you, if we could have he time today is about direct mail.
Brian: So, let me get this, It's just out of reach, here it is. For, those listening on Itunes, I'm holding up Justin's awesome direct mail package, which is one of the things that he used to get people along to that big seminar that he ran. So this is one of my, priced swipes now. I've had a lot of requests to do unboxing videos of that thing. I said, I'm sure he doesn't want me to expose what is marketing. But yeah, if you want to come back sometime and talk direct mail, that'd be really awesome as well.
Justin: Yeah, that'd be great. I actually, I don't have a huge amount of experience with direct mail. That was probably one of the first things I've ever done where I really just put it together from scratch. I mail it to my whole list. What shocked me was the response it got on social media. Like I had probably, I don't know, 40 people on Facebook, like take a picture with it or video with it and like posted on Facebook that I was not expecting whatsoever.
Brian: That's where I, that's where I go to these, I'm doing an unboxing video, man, this is a God's marketing pack here. I'm going to show that. But yeah, it was interesting.
Justin: Yeah, it did really well too. I mean it got, I think I had 20, I had 21 people at that event, about 15 of them paid 25 grand to be there and then the others were like, kind of like bring a partner for an extra five grand. But yeah, for me getting to a business owner that worked a lot better than like a VSL, it completely changes how they perceive the event.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. I remember seeing people all over the world to start to receive those. Cause my friends' list is a lot of people on your email list and then I've got mine all the way over here in Bangkok, Thailand and it was like one of the best, it's probably the best, shock and awe package that I've received for many years and no one does direct mail anymore anyway, but except few so that was good.
Brian: Yeah, so, justingofflist.com is the site to go if you qualify, you can get on into list. It's not patient process, if you go there and check it out and, if you can get on the list of highly advice you is very valuable. So, thanks for coming on Justin. And I know your time's very valuable as well. So I appreciate you sharing all these insights with us. It's been really awesome.
Justin: Awesome, man. Thanks for having me.
Brian: Thanks, man.
Announcer: Thank you for listening to Geniuses of Copywriting with Brian Cassingena. To get the full transcript in all the resources mentioned on today's show, go to www.geniusesofcopywriting.com now.