Announcer: Welcome to the geniuses of copywriting podcast, a peek into the minds and strategies of the world's greatest copywriters, marketers, and persuasion experts at now. Here's your host, Brian Cassingena.
Brian: Hey guys, welcome to the Geniuses of Copywriting podcast. It's time for another episode. I think today's going to be really fun cause I've got a guy on the call who's a copywriter who I've been following online for a little while, and he's kicking some real ass. Joey Percia?
Joey: It's Percia.
Brian: Percia. Yeah. Sorry, how are you man?
Joey: It's fine. I'm good, so how are you?
Brian: Yeah. Good man. Thanks for coming on the call with me today. Cause I know that I wanted to have a quick chat with you for some time, uh, and, beat you out of that copy stuff. So I think we're gonna have some fun.
Joey: Yeah, me too. I'm glad we finally got to do this.
Brian: Yeah, man, I've been looking forward to it. So, can you start by telling the listeners a bit about yourself, how you used to get started with copywriting?
Joey: Yeah, so I kind of fell into the whole copy marketing world. I was in the fitness business for awhile, so I trained person for years. And then I kept seeing my friends who were doing online coaching and they were just traveling wherever they wanted and I thought that was super cool. I wanted to do that instead of being stuck in the gym all day. I started building that business, my online coaching business, which is cool for a bit. But then when it actually started to grow and I found copy marketing and like it, I just realized that wasn't what I really wanted to do and I was enjoying just like the marketing side of things so much more. And then organically my friends just kept hiring me, like to write their stuff and it started as like a side hustle and then I was like, this is more fun for me. I'm just going to do this.
Brian: That's kind of a how it happened for me too.
Joey: Yeah. Did you get started in fitness too?
Brian: No, but something else, but, it kind of started a side hustle for me as well.
Joey: Yeah. What business we're in before?
Brian: Well, selling info products on Ebay actually. And you know, I ended up finding a lot more well paying and easier to when people started writing, getting me to write their marketing and their ebay ads.
Joey: Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. Yeah. It's, I guess it happens like that pretty often.
Brian: Yeah. So, um, so what, uh, what kind of stuff are you working on these days then?
Joey: Yeah, these days I'm doing, um, I'm doing things a bit differently so I'm kind of working on more, um, partnerships with people as opposed to kind of freelance clients. So helping them sell more offers that they already had going on, whether they, you know, proven offers that they have, whether they put them on the shelf and kind of went to something new or just helping them use assets they already have. Right. And in most cases with the, with the size clients and the businesses that they have, we do it on a, just a strictly a performance basis as opposed to like, you know, a big retainer or wake up front contract. And then, you know, cause sometimes stuff doesn't always pan out.
Brian: Yeah, that's for sure. That's for sure. True, true. No one hits that out of the park every time. Mark who have been sitting at an event on Australia years ago and end up sitting next to Ted Nicholas, the legendary copywriter and he said to me, you know, he like a seven out of 10 as he writes ends up flopping. So, and this was like one of the best of all time.
Joey: Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. Um, so yeah, I still do some of the front end stuff when, you know, it's, if the project's super exciting and, and all that. But yeah, I try to work a little bit more on the back end and just helping them kind of run, run promos like that. Yeah.
Brian: And is that like a, um, a lot more lucrative way of doing it because, uh, uh, you mentioned the working in these partnerships as opposed to just being hired as a copywriter to do like this promotion for like 18 grand or whatever. So, um, that's kind of the, uh, thing we will start at doing. But, now you're going down this path, so I'm really interested in finding out how you work with that and how that works out better for you and for the client.
Joey: Yes. So typically it's more, um, I would say it's more lucrative for both parties, um, because both people are, at least on my side, it's just way more incentivized to just work and then keep making it work right. Rather than get hide ones up front. So like I've had, um, some, you know, big upfront stuff and that stuff's done well. But like where I'm at now, I kind of, I, I really look for any sort of backend or ongoing thing that I can. So even if it's just like a big upfront stuff and some people are, some people aren't open to like that ongoing thing. Right. But it's at least there's some sort of, I tried to do everything on add on some level on a performance basis at this point. Um, just because I know like it's just like the way humans work.
Joey: And it's just like, well, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make this better. And if not, um, and it's, that's what I like about that is it's very, um, it's super low risk for the partner or the client, right? Like they're not, they're not as worried about doing that. Like so many people that the industry is, it's, it's so small. But it's funny how many people just like how many times people get screwed over by people who are just like, take huge upfront sums and then just don't deliver work or don't deliver it on time. Like, it blows my mind that that happens often. Like,
Brian: so I'll just sort of, my friend who wrote a wiser about this tonight, over a couple of years, you know, about a friend of us who, um, is, uh, had a bit of a reputation for not delivering. So, and once you have that reputation, you know, people talk about,
Joey: yeah, yeah. It's, it's crazy. Um, but I guess it's the way people do things sometimes. That's true. And, um, it's really interesting to me because like, uh, uh, when, uh, um, you know, not everyone had the same
Brian: start that I have, but I have, I'm just thinking back to listen to the old, uh, Dan Kennedy tapes and Dvds and Jeff Paul and all those, uh, all those guys who, um, one of their, um, the, the, the, the most unbreakable rules, um, that you have when, uh, you know, doing a certified, this is the only to get a whole bunch of money up front, um, from the client a as much as you possibly can. And, uh, you know, it's almost as if the, uh, uh, the failure to provide from that is about secondary, which obviously that's, um, that's not a way to build a sustainable business, but it's, it's, it's always been about the upfront money. So, um, what you're doing is, is, uh, is a bit of a departure from that. So how do you like it? Make sure that you're working with the right people who do the right thing?
Joey: Yeah. So the, I mean, that's a big part of it too. Like it, it has to, it has to be with, um, like also to, in order to do that, we'll look for businesses at certain levels and like they have, you know, certain size customer or prospect databases are a good reputation to them. So like all that stuff has to be pretty much in order for us to, um, for us to do that. But, um, cause yeah, there's, there's a lot of times where like, it doesn't necessarily make sense to do it for everyone because, you know, time is energy and money and all that stuff. So, um, I still do some of the same in the case where it might not be, they might have have great assets, there'll be, you know, uh, an upfront thing and then just a smaller piece on the back end.
Joey: Right. As opposed to just like a small or nothing upfront. Maybe. Usually we would just do a little bit of a deposit, just like sort of like, all right, we're both serious and then like any back. But it's kind of different too. It's not like we're gonna put together like, um, like if you get hired to write, you know, 10, 15, $20,000 package and it's this huge launch or whatever, we're not doing that out of the gate. It's like, we're going to try this one little thing first and see how things respond so we don't waste a month or two months of work and then just be like, wow, that sucks. Just like test stuff that like, you know, let's send a couple of emails or see how they respond. Or let's send a survey, see what's, see what happens, or let's do this little thing and see what's up. And then, and then we know if it like, oh, maybe that probably won't work in this case. And like that's bat loud or like, oh, that was awesome. Let's like, let's dive in and let's do it like that. So yeah, it's, it's a little bit different there, but um, painting it didn't walls. Exactly. Yeah.
Brian: Yeah. Cause it doesn't sound like much fun for a, right. It, it to be stuck in a virgin.
Joey: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So it's not like, um, we won't jump in and just be like, hey, let's just do this for, you know, let's sign something for like years. Yeah. Just one thing and see what happens. Like if it works awesome, if not cool. Um, but again, the same thing. It's not like huge, uh, Brian, uh, upfront risk for them to be dropping a ton of money to do it. So, yeah, I, um, I know that, and it's funny, like, I think if it's just, just copy, then, um, it makes sense to do like the upfront stuff and just like be, you know, big up front fees and stuff like that. I think if you're doing a bit more of like doing the office stuff, positioning, kind of managing stuff, then it, it, um, you're kind of opens that the door to do the, you know, do the more performance style stuff. But it's, yeah, I know Dan and Joe Fries. Yeah. But I mean, if you can, if you think as far as I would say back at that time, if you think like, um, Danvers, there's Jay Abraham, like they, uh, Jay does more like his, most of his stuff was performance based, but he's still like, you still had big upfront stuff too, but most of his deals that he did and, and partnerships that that was performance based. So they're both like, you know, I would like equally not, you know, are neck and neck. So, um, fucking yes.
Brian: Yeah. I think sometimes, uh, um, uh, some of these gurus that we listened to probably do like a bit more of this stuff done and they want to let on, you know, they say, you know, I get to like a, um, like a hundred grand up front or whatever for every single project, even writing one email, you know, but, uh, um, I think I do a lot more deals in the appropriate debt let on,
Joey: yeah. Yeah. I think there has got all sorts of stuff happening.
Brian: Yeah. I probably get a lot more flow coming across their desk too because, uh, there's several known and they can pick and choose a that a, um, brings me to yet lead Gen. It's for, for you, um, filling the pipeline. It's that uh, uh, it's got a similar sort of process to, to find these types of clients as anyone else. Is there any difference or is it the same thing?
Joey: I would say it's, it's been pretty much the same thing like for me and growing, uh, at least when I was just like, just my freelancing career growing that was pretty much like between word of mouth. Um, and, and uh, just like having a presence in the, in the universe, right? If you like mine or making like doing some sort of stuff on a, on a weekly, daily basis, whatever that was just to like have a presence and then, and then just the, my name to come up and then people, you know, people referring. But um, and I, I think my transition was a bit different since like I knew a decent amount of people in the health and fitness base already. So when I started doing that, it was like I wasn't coming into like with no network of anyone. Right. Like I, I already trained for a bit, I knew a bunch of people and then it was like, oh, I know Joey. He's like, he's a good dude. Like he should just let her hands. That kind of happened. It just happened. Um, but yeah, I would say the process is pretty much the same. And like, um, so I, I've only been doing kind of the, the partnership style stuff for the past few months. Um, so I still take saying if, if the, if the, you know, what, what the, the partner has, if they're kind of set up isn't ideal for that. I still do some of the, just the, the, you know, the bigger projects if it makes sense.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. It's this, uh, is this a sensing of the revenue share deals, which I've heard a lot about lately.
Joey: Yeah, pretty much. Yeah.
Brian: Yeah. Cause that's kind of the cool thing with the, with the um, uh, marketing consultants where instead of a, um, you know, uh, channel, it's up front fee, said that talking about rev share deals and, and they get up the finisher sometimes of the business itself, uh, shades and stuff. So, um, these kinds of deals you can really, um, uh, if you, if you jump on the right ones, you really, uh, give you a lot of good income and wealth after the fact of doing the actual work.
Joey: Yeah. Yeah. I, that's Kinda how I look at it is more of like a solid long term play. And like if, if I, if I end up working with, um, you know, the right partner on something and it's just like an ongoing thing, it's, I get to do the part that I enjoy, which is the, the marketing and like getting people into stuff. Uh, and not creating the products. Cause I never enjoyed that and that like, you know, not doing that type of stuff, which I didn't like. So I handle this stuff. Typically they don't like to handle and then they like the handle
Brian: and that's the, um, that's an appealing thing for a prospect as well to take stuff off their plate is, I don't like doing, like you mentioned before, you know, uh, you're managing some of the, uh, some of the big parts of the business and, and uh, taking on, uh, other Tufts that, uh, that, you know, if you're just writing it a Google doc of copy, you know, um, uh, it's a lot to bigger scope than that. Um, so that, that's one of the big selling points of, of a, a framing and offer to a prospect in this way.
Joey: Yeah. Well, I and I, that's a great point. That's like, um, that's a big part of it. It's just like, it's a way better offer to the client, right? Like it's, it's not like I'm like is way less risk on their part. Right? Yeah. It's not that big upfront oh, front stuff with no guarantee of what's going to happen. I know, and some copywriters give guarantees and stuff, but most of the time it's like, my guarantee is like to work with you until it works. Yeah. It's still like, what does work mean? Just like, yeah, yeah, with this or like, oh yeah, like I don't have any risk and you're going to do everything. All right. So, yeah, it's, it's just to them it's a better offer.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. And uh, uh, the lower with you could make it, the more you can do for them. Uh, you know, cause when I've taken on some retired, retain a client, so the last couple of years, you know, and sometimes I'm just writing copy, but often, well, not often, but some of the clients, you know, want you to like, uh, uh, work closely with a team, maybe even send out the email itself. Um, so, uh, it really depends on the clients and their expectations. So it's like, uh, you know, if like, I remember, um, I took on, uh, one client where I was, uh, uh, a little bit more hands on in some of the work in infusion soft though using. And, uh, um, the deal was that I was going to do have an, until they could find somebody to take on those duties. So that was, uh, that was, uh, uh, one of the, uh, effective in winning that deal. You know, because I was, I was able to, uh, use that cause I, I find confusion soft pretty easy to use, uh, for, for some reason or maybe I'm just not trying hard enough, but, uh, but, uh, but yeah, um, uh, that was one of the departments that deal for, uh, sometimes, you know, uh, I think when you, uh, uh, take something off the client's plate the way you are doing that, that really helps.
Joey: Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah. So, um,
Brian: uh, uh, but other than that, you know, um, uh, everything is the same when you, with your process of writing copy, uh, and, uh, you know, delivering the deliverables and all that stuff. So, um, yeah, uh, I mean I, when you more hands on involved in, in actually putting together these campaigns, do work pretty closely with the team of the, uh, of the, uh, of the client as well. Go to the meetings and make sure that uh, uh, that your copy is getting implemented the way one,
Joey: yeah. So I mean in most of these situations, um, we try to like handle like saying as much as we can so we'll actually implement the stuff. So like you said, since it's kind of a, a lot of it's email base, right? Email or like social base. Um, so we're able to just actually like log in there and send the stuff and make sure we know it's getting sent and all that stuff. Cause it's not like we're building these 10 step funnels that are like beautifully designed and all that stuff. Cause that's more on like the front end. So we're kind of moving more to stuff they already have, whether it's, you know, their Facebook groups or email lists. So yeah, like that stuff's easy for us to us to implement and what we try to do, sin basically make it like, so it's completely new paycheck for them.
Joey: Right? We're not going to stay, if they're crushing it on email, we're not going to come in and be like, take over your email and a big piece of this. So like here now we're like, all right, you're doing that over there. The email, maybe there's a segment that you're like, not really mailing to, or maybe you have a group that you're not really monitoring. Like Facebook group. You're not really monetized. And so like, let's try something on there. So try to make it, um, so it's like completely new. Right. So it's not, it's not taking anything out of what's going into their pocket already. If anything it's adding and then we'd just take a piece of that, that new addition.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, that's really interesting too because a lot of a Newbie copywriter is trying and come in and probably fix it to fix something that's already that a, um, that ain't broke, you know, um, that they see someone doing email marketing, well let's, let's let you put a work itself, but I want a picture of that, that action. And they want to sort of dive into something that's already working because that's, that's an easier step than actually creating a, um, uh, a new revenue stream for that client themselves with scratch.
Joey: Yeah. And I think there's, I think there's a time and place for that too. Like, um, you know, some people who have funnels and they're converting to cold and stuff, but, and, and if they're willing, if they're running a lot of traffic, they're willing to pay people a lot of money. If they can beat that control to, cause then there's like tons of money to them so that there's definitely a time place for like that front end front end stuff. Um, it's just, it's, I feel like there's less and less opportunities for that because they're like, one, that's where everyone's going. And then two, it's because, um, it's just because it's like, that's, that's what everyone looks at us, like where their money comes in. Right? It's like the front end stuff typically just so much more opportunity to get someone to buy more often or you know, increased packages size in the back end or just bring something out that they haven't done anything with in awhile. So it was just like, yeah, let's keep fighting over that front stuff and just like soup in back here.
Brian: So do you have like a, um, do you have fuck a one area way fee, massive opportunities for, um, for somebody to come in it like in general, in most businesses, like a, for me, I, I, I see a lot of, uh, uh, opportunity to email marketing, um, for a lot of businesses not getting that right. Where's the biggest opportunity for someone to come in and start doing stuff?
Joey: Clients, I would say, um, I agree with email too. Um, I, I say email and then if we're going even deeper, I'd say email to, um, to customer databases. Yeah. A lot of people, again, they broke, they just focused on the prospects to get them in for the first place.
Brian: And then once I got that, yeah.
Joey: Yeah. And there is, and then just opportunities of like, um, I'm just a big fan of email too because like, if someone's a buyer to then there's also just other things you can offer them that aren't even necessarily in your product suite or offer sweet that like they still want. Right. So just looking at like, oh, someone bought this like fat loss thing. Like they're probably interested in other health things are health related things. Um, and you know, setting up deals that way where you're either creating packages or adding new things and um, and that type of stuff. I think, I think email is probably one of the biggest ways, especially now with it being, um, like one people saying it's dying. So like, that's awesome because people are mailing this and that. And then just deliverability, which is becoming harder. And then, uh, you know, people, if they don't know what they're doing at all, then it's like, oh, my open rates are like 5% from whatever, and they're like, oh, yeah. And if you can get up, then that's, you know, that can, that can boost revenue right back up.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. I just wrote a book about that and uh, um, that's like, uh, that's one of the other big opportunities, like you say, people who have an email list that, uh, it's not working for them. So, um, yeah. So yeah, I'm with you on that one for sure. And I've done that a few times through a few clients and, and, uh, it's a, um, it's a tricky thing sometimes, but, uh, especially if they've been that, a mark of that WHO's sent out 14 affiliate offers every, every week and they'll list, I suppose I probably wouldn't really, um, take on that client with a, a, a partnership. Probably want to give me a chunk of cash up front, even if I was for risky or yeah. Or on a hiding to nothing as I say. So. Yeah,
Joey: yeah, yeah.
Brian: Um, uh, is there any, any other opportunities that you see? Uh, um, on a strategic level, like an, the next, next few years? Like a, um, like if I, if I had a, um, uh, yeah. And, and meet many of the copyright in the same property. You know, we, we, we had, uh, come across something a way to work like this three or four years ago, you know, um, things a couple about different today. It's good to get ahead of the curve. Is there anything that you can see on the horizon that's, uh, that, uh, it might be coming up?
Joey: I, I think that, um, which I haven't done enough of it to say yet, but I think that direct mail is going to come back, yeah. Or, or stronger. I think there's going to be a lot more opportunity there. Um, because getting something physical is just, I mean, it's always been like different and it's always been, um, strong and just like the feeling of someone actually building something in hand. But even more that everything is becoming digital and more and more and more, um, you're going to think less people. Again, there are less people are sending direct mail stuff, so you're not getting as much junk. And then if you're getting actual letters that are kind of, you know, more like personal letters, like how we would write emails, right? It's just like, Holy Shit, what is this? So I, um, I think that's gonna that's gonna come back strong and that's what I'm looking to move into with, um, some of the partners that I'm working with and like we ended up wining campaigns and their offers that do well and we'll try to move that into direct mail. So, but yeah, I haven't, I haven't done that yet. I know people who are doing it and they're doing amazing with it. So that's something that I'd like to, um, start testing out with when we have, uh,
Brian: you know, systems with, with those partners. So, um, it's a, it's a good point. I agree with you and I'll look at it as well. I'd describe an American bowel box to me because, uh, I've lived in Asia, I've listened, I used for years and, and whatever dirt bag we get here, it's not money's English. And, uh, when I was back in Australia, you know, basically we used to get yes,
Joey: my catalog, um, capital
Brian: real estate slides. But, uh, nothing that a, um, would ever suggest that anybody there knows anything about direct mouth. So what is it like? Okay.
Joey: I think it's very similar to that. It's, um, it's lots of kind of grocery store coupon things. Um, seasonal. We'll get like, uh, like we just got lawn care stuff. And, um, I think that's pretty much it. Other than that, it's just like stuff from credit cards. Yeah. You know, I chased accounts and I just keep getting, I get like at least three offers to get new chase cards, at least three. And I, some of the cars I already have and they're time. But yeah, it's pretty much just like that's, I would say like that's the majority of it is then I'll get some direct mail from um, from some very few of the people that I've gone through like free plus shipping offers.
Brian: Yeah, yeah. Which is why, which is why they should do it free plus shipping offer. It could get the goat and loving address. The [inaudible] they got just rampant with, um, not long before I left for Australia. I've got to, I've got an envelope in my bowel box and I picked up and looked at it and I thought that uh, yeah, a kid had written a note on it and I'm looking at right away it's his kid, it's a plain envelope and it said to, you know, dia, I'm house kind of dressed me [inaudible] you know, but my mom was really struggling and I'm looking for any part time work. And then that sort of things like it's written like a messy writing, like it, like a nine year old cute or something. And I thought, this is somebody, somebody who's written on this envelope and put up in my mailbox looking for like, uh, some work, some yard work or something.
Brian: But it was a, I opened it up and it would say direct mailer from the Red Cross. Oh Wow. Said charities actually doing, I had to do some of this third bout it heavy and I've been in marketing for it for 10 years at that point. Uh, I've been a big fan of direct ballon and it had to be convinced that somebody had, actually, yes. But it's probably an entity every mailbox from the street in the suburbs. So, um, I've got the swipe at home and, uh, it's like, it's an amazing piece of work, but uh, that's, that's great. Yeah, that would have generated a lot of money for them because, uh, uh, you would get a lot of opens with that.
Joey: Wow. That's, that's cool. Yeah. Actually that reminds me, I've, um, we've, we've got, uh, we get a bit from, uh, the cars that we have. So like my wife's car and my car will get, you know, that them trying to upgrade our cars and um, some of them have been pretty creative, but other ones are just like, I got on the hot how they do. But, um, yeah, we'll get some of that stuff. Like a trade off there all we're going to give you this, this much cash and this much above or whatever.
Brian: That's a, um, do you see like a, I mean, can you get, look, I mean if you could get a list of buyers and a costume is, so you mentioned that, uh, um, you mentioned it to one of the big opportunities for copywriter was, uh, for customer lists, not just of of the whole, the whole prospects and customers and everyone, but people bought and recently, and uh, back then I'd just, uh, throwing toilet bet a email which you work your, or are you also talking about to direct mouth?
Joey: Yeah. Yeah, I would, I would say both. Right. And like, if it's, if something works in email, there's a way better chance that to be working in, in direct mail, Mike and emails that cheap tests. Like we don't have to test direct mail. Like they used to have mail when they couldn't test online.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. That's a theme for like a Frank Kerin digital mark there and do some direct mail. Um, uh, I don't think I've ever gotten any, probably just in the US, but to, um, smart people.
Joey: Yeah. I, I got, um, I've gotten a direct mail piece from digital marketer before traffic and conversions, I think, I think two years ago. I don't think I got anything this year, but yeah. Everybody got a piece from them.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. It's probably with the virtual lab up there just to, uh, to get mouth then the customer lists. But I'm a, I'm a TNC attendees as I should be able to get something. Yep. Um, yeah, so that's really cool, man. Uh, uh, yeah, it wasn't a, um, uh, quite sure about it. But I think, you know, because one of the reasons why I stopped, oh, drip mail, um, uh, the tinkering the I did in the past, but now it's back home. Um, it's cause it's so much cheaper to do everything online, um, which is the same story or there, I know nobody wants to pay for it. Stamping a foot to mail a letter in Australia. Now if you need to agree with stamp and hand write on the envelope, but see me, you don't outsource the, uh, the handwriting of the end of the votes, um, which you should, uh, you know, it's costing up to like two bucks a liter or more, um, to, uh, yeah, to actually send a letter to somebody in Australia, but relatively expensive anyway than they used to be.
Joey: Yeah. Yeah. But I think, um, if it's to like two bucks to customer lists, like is way different than two bucks to prospect. Right? Like, you know, in that case, it might be, it might be way, way more worth it to actually do that as opposed to just like being another ad online. Sure, sure, sure. Right. And,
Brian: and, uh, um, I mean, uh, ever fed that. Yeah. Am I, am I worried about the wrong thing? You know, am I overly concerned with the costs of that Nyli uh, where, you know, if, uh, if I'm adding the right offer to these customers, you know, it doesn't matter how much it costs, it was stupid that it would be morally wrong.
Joey: Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing. And like I said, I haven't done a bunch of it to be like, yeah, this is what you do. But that's, that's exactly the thought. Right. And I think since less and less people are doing it because of that, they're like, I can just, I can just do it online. Um, I think going into like, I can test it online and then do this if it works, because then, you know, then yeah, I think there's just a, I'm going to be a lot, a lot more opportunity to that. Um, especially when people just look at that as like, again, we said email, like people think email's dead. And then like, they think direct mail is even like--it's varied way deeper. So...
Brian: yeah, they can do email for, you know, less than a hundred bucks a month for the, uh, for the auto responders. So, but for like a zillions of emails, so that's why direct mail is neglected.
Joey: Yeah. Yeah. And it's riskier like you're saying,
Brian: but, uh, but yeah, it's, it's like I tell clients not to worry about, to you know, a comes to lead when they're generating leads. If some of their leads are converting they pay 10 bucks a lead, what's the matter if that lead on average to do is 20? So, yeah. Yeah. And, uh, I've always had like a good results in. I remember about selling. After I got good at selling stuff on Ebay, I made a marketing course based around that and I used to sell that by mail and the price point today showed on after a while what's actually $597. And I wrote a sales, it was converting on the front end, like, 10%-- which is crazy. And yeah, I always use a lot more expensive to do those mailings, but for a while they, you know, I paid the bills with that little business. It's funny, this online marketing course with just selling a big laugh on at the website for, but nothing into later. So what about Joey Percia? How can people find out more about you after they've listened to this?
Joey: Yeah. Um, I am somewhat active on Facebook as far as social media platforms are concerned. It's just my name. And then I also have a website too, that again that thing hasn't been updated for a long time, but it's joeypercia.com. Yeah, that's pretty much it.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. Cause I really encourage people to go to joeypercia.com if you're listening on Itunes, if you're on the website, I'll chuck a link up on the geniusesofcopywriters.com website on your page there. If you're listening on itunes, go to joeypercia.com. I know he's got some cool stuff there, it isn't updated. But then the GaryHalbertdidit.com hasn't been updated in about a hundred years.
Joey: I wouldn't say the two are equal, but
Brian: Yeah, but it's a fair comparison because that looks like it to be, it was designed in about 1996, which it probably wasn't, but so that the information is still valuable there. And the same with on your website as well. So you've got your book and some other stuff on there. So, yeah I highly recommend that everyone listening to this devour everything you can on that website, get the book and everything like that. So, it's definitely well worth it too and in case you they want you on Facebook as well. Do you have a facebook group or just your profile?
Joey: I will in a bit, I'm in the process of doing that.
Brian: So they would just add you on your profile and then you'll know that plug your group now and then and stuff like that. Let me know when we launch that too. So I'll check it up. I appreciate you coming on, man. It's been good fun to have finally catch up and put a face to the name. So, good to connect on here. Thanks for all the value that you've offered on the, on the call today. It's been really interesting and I think insightful for a lot of people who I know are listening to this podcast. So guys, go to Joeypercia.com. Check everything out there, get his book, and add him on Facebook. And yeah, you get a lot of value out of it, so I appreciate your time. Thanks for coming on and I'll talk to you soon.
Joey: Thanks man. I appreciate it.
Brian: Thanks for that. Have a good one.
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