Announcer  
Welcome to the Geniuses of Copywriting podcast. A peek into the minds and strategies of the world's greatest copywriters, marketers and persuasion experts. And now here's your host Brian Cassingena.

Brian  
Hi guys, welcome to the call. I'm really excited to chat to David Garfinkel today. And if you've been into copywriting persuasion for any length of time, then you know who this guy is. David's known as the world's greatest or best copywriting coach. I couldn't agree with that more.

Brian  
He's one of the legends of the industry. He's helped copywriters and businesses in more than 100 Industries increase their profits through better copywriting, including one business brought in $40 million from a three page sales letter he wrote, so that's pretty impressive in anyone's book.

Brian  
He's in the books, he's a classic, breakthrough seller in copywriting. It's a number one bestseller on Amazon. So, David, I really appreciate a guy of your caliber coming on to chat with me today. So I thank you very much for your investment of time in this. So thanks for that. And yeah, if you could tell us a bit about yourself and read back your story.

David  
Sure, glad to. So I started out in my career as a journalist, a business journalist and did really well with that. And it was, I guess a lot of people can relate to this. The better I got, and the further I went, the more I realized that it wasn't for me, that I was on the wrong path. And it took me a while.

David  
I tried a few things that were pretty spectacular failures and then I found copywriting after I left journalism in the mid 80's and It was a Gary Halbert seminar that I went to that it just totally changed my life and I met a lot of people there who became friends with and business associates.

David  
Since then up to this day, John Carlton, I think I met Bond Halbert, he was probably knee high to a grasshopper at the time I met Gary Of course, David Deutsch, Carl Gillespie, Dan Kennedy, a lot of people that you've probably heard of, they were all in that room at that time.

David  
It was actually a hurricane relief fundraiser seminar for Hurricane Andrew. And as we're recording this of course hurricane Florence is threatening the East Coast of the United States and that's probably going to be even worse but Hurricane Andrew is terriblw. Anyway, I wrote copy like a madman.

David  
My back was really up against the wall. And deep chin at that point financially and copywriting was the way out. But when I would talk about it the way I would explain it, people would ask me to teach and asked me to coach and so, I did write a lot of copy.

David  
And I wrote the $40 million lottery. You mentioned also, I wrote one internet letter that made a million in one or two days as server actually melted. That was the lead generation. It was not my letter. My copy was so hot than that server or anything.

Brian  
I'm sure it was. 

David  
On a personal note, I'd like to say something. When I was younger, I had a very thick hair. And a lot of times these days people say why are you wearing that silly hat? Where's that beautiful bushy head of hair. You and I have both seen this very important scientific report on Facebook, our friend Vin Mantello put up.

Brian  
Yeah. So that is absolutely a true story. That is 100% provable scientific fact.

David  
Science says that bald men are stronger and more confident.

Brian  
Yeah.

David  
So no apology. So me being confident, I don't apologize.

Brian  
Why should you?

David  
Yeah, so anyway, I started coaching and worked out really well. People started getting great results. I went back to school, I got a master's in education. That was a worthless mistake.  I took a year long professional training, Coach training and I did learn some good things not much about coaching copywriting but been about coaching people.

David  
And I've kept at it, I just got a new client today who is in France, who speaks English. He is raised in the US and is top of his market in France. So it's turned out to be a very good business for me and for my clients.

Brian  
Yeah. And you've got the reputation proceeding you based on all that. All that work that you've done and all the studies done. They call you the world's greatest copywriting coach, and I would definitely agree with that. Why do they call you the world's greatest copywriter?

David  
Well, I thought about that a long time. It's hard for me to remember, the one point in time was probably the late 90's. And if you remember the name J. Conrad Levinson, the guerilla marketing guy. He was a friend of mine who lived in the same area that I do, and I was at his house and I think Mitch Myerson his cousin, was Ernest, his nephew was there.

David  
And we were talking and I told him that I was going to be doing this and they said, Well, what about your positioning? I mean, they didn't say branding, why don't you say you're the world's greatest copywriting coach and I said, Well, then I'd actually have to be the world's greatest copywriting coach. I said, Well, I'm the world's best selling marketing author, you say something, that's all I can remember.

David  
And I started to tell people and they start to agree and then they start to say it themselves. I'm the only guy I know who actually does this full time and doesn't do anything else. I mean, some of my A list friends do copy critiques or copy chief thing. I don't know anyone else who does this. I still write a little copy mostly for myself and for clients, only people I've known for a while, and usually maybe even people have coached people who have consulted for. But yeah, I've just been doing this a lot and it's worked out well.

Brian  
So it's that's kind of the place where you found yourself. This is the most effective version of yourself. This is where you do your best work.

David  
I believe so. Yeah. I mean, I seem to be a compulsive explainer. I like to teach things to people. And also, I believe, I may have some learning disabilities, which would sound strange for a guy with like, two degrees in a PHD level certificate and coaching but I don't learn things the way supposedly other people learn them.

David  
So I really had to learn how to break things down for myself and I use that style of very small bore step by step instruction in explanation and it seems to work very well. But yeah, I also like coaching, I like people and I like helping and teaching them and I don't like a lot of the things about education.

David  
You don't see that much of this in our world but certainly in the academic world where they just pour lots of knowledge into you so you can recite it back in a test and the professor can collect their paycheck and rinse and repeat and doesn't do anyone else a whole lot of good. So I'm very much about the practical stuff.

Brian  
Yeah, that's very important. Speaking of people getting started, do you coach people who are beginner copywriters or people who have some experience or what's your advice for people getting started in in the area of copywriting?

David  
Yeah, so I don't coach beginners, I've tried that. And it's been a disaster over and over again, I just don't know how to help someone get started from zero. As a coach, as a teacher, I have some good ideas and based on what I've done and based on what some of the people I know who are really good at working with beginners have those people do and I can share those with you.

David  
The first thing is you need to read, you need to read a bad copy because as you know, Brian, you have to think very differently about the way you write and write very differently and so you need to read, you can't do this just out of your imagination or out of your preconceptions. You have to both read copy, read a lot of copy both inside the niche you may be working in if you picked a niche and elsewhere.

David  
And you need to read some of the great books about copywriting usually seven times, for example, scientific advertising on the cover of one of the additions of scientific advertising by Claude Hopkins. The great David Ogilvy is quoted as saying, No one should write any advertising until they've read this at least seven times.

David  
Because I'm a slow learner, I read it twice as much. So they're a handful of books like that. I'd also recommend my book, Breakthrough Copywriting because it's great for beginners and it's also good for more experienced people who are looking to fill in gaps in certain areas.

Brian  
Definitely  agree with that. I mean, my point of view as I get people approaching me from for copywriting coaching at times I never advertised anything like that. So it's kind of an organic thing.

Brian  
But really, if they don't have any base in copywriting, it feels like it's really hard to really push forward, push them forward in their results.And if they don't know the difference between a headline and a PS, then they need to go into that groundwork. So, if I was going to be a full time coach, I'll do the same thing.

David  
Yeah. And I would say, besides reading, you want to write. You want to practice, you want to try stuff. You might write a Facebook ad or a Google AdWords ad, or a display ad, or maybe just an opt in page, but you need to actually practice doing it.

David  
Writing is so mental people think you can do it all in your head, but you can't. There has to be at least in an interaction between you and your fingers. And ultimately, it's about an interaction between you and a prospect.

David  
Hand copying letters, which everybody hates, and everyone I know who's good has done. I think that's really important. And I think you should go to some inter introductory seminars or webinars, but be careful. At an early stage, It doesn't have to be someone who's great at teaching, but it needs to at least be someone who has experience in the real world.

David  
One thing I spent a long time thinking about is why don't they teach good copywriting and direct marketing at colleges and universities and there may be some exceptions. I think NYU may have some there, maybe some in Australia, UK or Thailand. I don't know but I haven't seen any personally.

David  
I think a lot of reasons is that the rules you need to succeed in an academic environment would almost prevent anyone who's a really experienced copywriter from being one of your teachers. And if you learn from someone who understands the theory, but not the practice, that's dangerous. You shouldn't do that.

Brian  
I couldn't agree more. So if they really understood the core of what copywriting is about,  that they wouldn't be the person who is in a classroom teaching as a nine to five job.

David  
I mean, there are exceptions. For example, Bob Bly is a great copywriter and a great teacher. I don't prefer his style, but I respect him. I learned a lot from him in the beginning, he has taught at NYU. I don't know why I keep bringing up NYU. Well, maybe because I live near there when I worked in New York, even though it had nothing to do with MIU.

David  
But that sort of stands out in my mind as a place where you might get something Good and Bob was sort of famous for his 12 hour days after his multi millionaire and has 80 books in print. 80 books and printing and that's a lot of hours. But, I mean he didn't give everything up, he did that is a professional thing or a part time thing.

Brian  
So what about if I can move on to people who haven't like established businesses but not established copy. As I record this I've just taken on a new client, will be writing copy for and they've got an Ecommerce business with a health supplement.

Brian  
They've been selling worldwide. And they are doing, well into six figures per month. But they've literally never emailed their list. They have absolutely basic copy on the product pages. They've done well just by being ranked in Google and by having a good product and having a basic core concept.

Brian  
But what can business owners like that do if they've experienced a good level of success but without copy and how much upside potential to the business side of that has and what kind of things should they do with their copy?

David  
Yeah, well a few things. I will get to your question but first, let me say I'm jealous of you. It's going to be so easy for you to be a hero. Gary Bencivenga, for anyone who doesn't know famous copywriter. Some people said he was the guy everyone was afraid of, couldn't be in controls. He said a gifted product is more important than a gifted pen. And this is a classic example of that. To the tune of six figures a month, right? Gifted meaning high quality, not some special esoteric meaning of the word there.

David  
So when someone's at that level, step number one is to hire Brian, that was a good idea. He's done that one, if they want to learn more about writing copy themselves. So certainly all of the other things. The kind of person you're talking about, is the kind of person. I do work with business people who have a lot of experience in business, especially Ecommerce, direct marketing, but maybe not the copy because a lot of what a beginner has to learn they've already learned

David  
Bbut then to take it to the level of being a good copywriter. At that point, you need to get around experienced people. Now they're going to learn a lot working with you, you'll probably be surprised. They're not going to be as good as you and they're going to need you to but they're going to get better.

David  
They'll  pick things up. Because to get to that point in business, you fall over, stub your toes, skin your knee a lot. You have to, because you're basically inventing something new with a business like that. I'm speaking in shorthand here, but we could spend hours if we could. So the things I think that work besides maybe reading some of those basic books, is going to being around experienced people and getting feedback.

David  
Working with a new experienced successful copywriter, like yourself, certainly a good step. Joining masterminds, to join a real mastermind. I mean, one example is the mastermind. I do with John Carlton and Stan and David Deutsch. And Kevin Rogers is there a lot too. It doesn't have to be that one, but it should be a mastermind, where there are people who have experience.

David  
And in our mastermind, a lot of masterminds seem more like very expensive parties to me or where you go there and you get to hang out with Madonna or Donald Trump Jr. or something. it is great, but really, how's that going to help your business, but it certainly gives you bragging rights at the next meeting you go to.

David  
At our mastermind, we give each person an hour and we use the Napoleon Hill mastermind model where keep things harmonious and productive. And people come up with ideas that really take off and that actually happened to one of my coaching clients who's a business owner that supplements any sort of weird, who's also in that mastermind and he got some ideas that have totally, steeping the growth curve that he's on. So another thing is training focused groups.

David  
From experience that are found by and staffed by experienced copywriter teachers, and two I can think of that I'd recommend would be Carlton's Simple Writing System, and Kevin Rogers' Copy Chief. Now I'm sure there are others, those are the two I know about and I know that the principles of those businesses personally and can vouch for them and if my life depended on a piece of copy wouldn't have any problem, depending on Carl if he was in the right mood, or Kevin Rogers.

David  
These guys are desktops. So being some kind of training environment. And then personal mentoring, working with someone like you working with someone like me, because at a certain point, you're going to learn all the standards. But there are things a book, or even a seminar even a mastermind can't tell you, you need to get someone to know you and really work with you.

Brian  
Yeah. Appreciate that. So if I can ask you just like, overall when you're sitting down to improve a piece of sales copy whether you're experienced or not, what are the top three things that you can focus on in any piece of copy, let's say a sales page or a note, you want to use an email or something else as an example. What are the top three things that needs to be said?

David  
Oh, when I saw your question, originally, I thought you meant what are the three things a person can improve themselves? And I would like to answer that question, even if you ask it later. But let me think about what you're saying. So it sort of relates to the three things a person should do.

David  
It needs to speak to the prospect as an individual in a way that's meaningful, relevant and familiar, which means the headline needs to talk about something that's top of mind for them. That maybe they're already waking up and thinking, geez, if I could only or Oh man,  and the rest of the sentence should be addressed in the headline in and it needs to read like a conversation, not like a real conversation. If you go to, they have Starbucks in Thailand, right?

Brian  
Yeah.

David  
So you go to a Starbucks where there's some experts like yourself, and people are talking and you put on your phones and you pretend you're transcribing something, you're actually listening to what people say. You'll find a start and then they go off and different direction.

David  
And then they repeat that. So you don't want to be conversational in the way that people actually talk but you want to write in a much more focused, persuasive, high energy enthusiastic way. And by the way, writing conversationally, Carlton said this and I agree with him I never thought about until he said it and I reviewed what I'd seen and people I've worked with and other copywriters learning how to write conversationally is maybe the last skill that comes in after you've been working on it. It seems like it should be so easy, but it's easy.

David  
And then your stories and your bullets. I mean in an opt in page, you're probably not going to have a story but you probably will have bullets. Bullets make a difference. I remember David once told me he rewrites his bullets, four times. Yeah every one and he also had seven controls going for boardroom, which was maybe the biggest or certainly one of the biggest mailers simultaneously had seven pieces that people could write.

David  
Yeah. But He's good. He's amazing. I mean, maybe he's better than Bencivenga, but maybe you just didn't want to mess with him, but he's really, really good. And to turn your question to the one I thought you were asking, which is what should a person focuses on. It's the same thing.

David  
But from the point of view of skills rather than the written document. It's getting to know your target market personally. getting better at writing conversationally, and improving three things, storytelling headlines and headlines, big ideas and bullets.

Brian  
And that's what you just went through over the last few minutes. Is it some incredible information. So I really appreciate you sharing that.

David  
Sure. You're welcome.

Brian  
And you mentioned knowing your target market. How do you really get in depth in that? Because this is one of the things that I know it's one of the most important parts knowing who I'm writing to. But there's so many different ways of doing it. It's not always certain about the ways to research a customer, what are your insight on these areas?

David  
Absolutely. So let me start out by saying that some copywriters, you're talking about in depth which I agree should. Some copywriters won't even stick their toe in the shallow end of the pool. They're going to and I don't know if They're afraid or they just don't get it or they're arrogant. I don't know why they don't.

David  
But you need to understand that you're not writing to an abstract concept like a demographic or an avatar, you're writing to a person. You should be writing to one person and so you need to know about a lot of the people in the market to actually visualize an actual person that you're a living, breathing, reacting, emotional, irrational, stubborn, cranky person with a credit card. 

David  
And so, I'd say  there's three stages. The first one is online research, that's usually very possible to do. You can read about the market, which is sort of going to be limited to how good the person writing about the market actually understands it and is at communicating and how good they are at communicating it.

David  
But you can look at forums, for almost everything, anything these days, there's a forum. I mean, Facebook is like a forum, but you can really specialized forum or go into the groups and Facebook. There are a lot of groups like that. See what kind of comments they're saying, especially look at questions and complaints and requests.

David  
People will often lie about how good they feel because they've been told to be positive, but people rarely lie about their complaints or their questions. So those will tell you a lot of blog posts and reviews and customer reviews. I mean, Amazon is done all of us and incredible service.

David  
If you can find a book or find a product like yours and see what people like about the existing product and they don't, that'll give you some marketing points. They'll also tell you about the mindset and the preferences. It's so hard for copywriters to realize that they are not their market that they need to know 10-20, a hundred times as much as the person buying, but they also about the product but they also need to know about the customer.

David  
So that's step one.online. That's where you as a copywriter is separated from the safety of the screen and in the information. Then the next step is phone interviews. Talk to people on the phone, or Skype or zoom, I like zoom. And ask them and learn how to interview people so people will get comfortable, learn how to be non judgmental and really good listener.

David  
And sometimes if you don't have much to say if you just asked Good question and let them know how interesting that is. They will start to spill stuff out. They didn't even realize what's on their mind. Now that's scary if you don't know how to do it, and some people I know some copywriters are so introverted and I'm going to talk about one a little later.

David  
They really don't like to talk to people but you should get over it. If you're introverted get over your social anxiety. This is part of your job. Just got to do it. And then the third part is going to be especially as scary to people like that, but it's the best thing go on and meet them, go to trade shows, go to their stores.

David  
Set up meetups, have coffee with them. They even have a Starbucks in Italy now. They only have one and every Italian I saw on the news article said this is not coffee.  Meet people talk to them. It's amazing, because it's like businesses, every business is is 90% the same, but the 10% that's different makes them unique. And until you really know, almost at a gut level, what that 10% difference is in your target market, your copy could be off from anywhere from one or two degrees to 180 degrees.

Brian  
Yeah, that's really interesting. And that's the part that that I've often struggled with the, the assumption that I know enough to write to a market without having to do the in depth research, which is why I wanted your insight on this to help myself improve as well as the listeners here too.

Brian  
So you know that's really valuable information for anyone who needs Writing to any market ready.

David  
Cool.

Brian  
So let's move on to, I know you don't really teach many beginners but it could be a person who has some copywriting now and this is me after probably the first year or so study copywriting. I don't read it and I bought some courses and I started studying with copywriting and I thought that I knew everything about the structure and the formulas of direct response copywriting.

Brian  
And then after a certain point, I dove in and started actually running a business with the copy. So what i'm trying asked is what stage do you consider a person whether at any point in their journey where they're learning copywriting, whether the beginner or advanced what stage should they jump in and start running ads and testing their own copy?

David  
Well, okay, again with a disclaimer I'm not the best person to ask this question. I mean I don't coach beginners but I don't ban them from my life. I talk to them, I'm friends with some but  I'm not sure this is exactly the best advice. This is what I can say I actually have a client whose business partners in Bangkok, you probably don't know Cliff Do you?

David  
He's a hypnosis teacher but he's pretty knowledgeable about things outside hypnosis and one of the best pieces of advice I ever got in life in business was from him. He said, risk small, but risk often. So a lot of people hear about the 25 and $50,000 to people like you and me get for copy for a big projects and they think Man, that's what I got to do.

David  
No, you start wherever you are. And sometimes you're going to take all the risk yourself, you're going to write something for free or on spec or you pay me if you like it. And sometimes you're going to get steamrolled and things like that. And you're not going to take it personally. Because you got something out of it. You got experience, you learn something, you found out what it's like. There's a great movie I like, it's it's an American movie called Jerry Maguire.

Brian  
Yeah, classic.

David  
Classic movie. And right at the beginning, Tom Cruise's, the sports agent who's about to get fired, is talking about all the high school athletes. And he says, you look promising, but until they turn pro, it's just like popcorn in the pan. Some Pop, some don't. And so you've got to get out there and start trying to pop and don't focus too much on money at the start, it's a lot easier to get good money or do you get paid at all, after you've had some real world experience, you should almost pay people to write for them.

David  
Now, I'm not suggesting you offer that because there are enough sharks out there who will take your money. But the real word experience is worth way more than a certification from one of these companies now putting out courses or AWAI actually having been there especially if you come up with a little product, it might not even be profitable, and put your own skin in the game.

David  
Put your own money on the line, by your own ads. I mean, there's nothing like, well they used to say money in the mailbox is also nothing like losing money on an ad to really focus your senses. And so I'd say, get experience. Geta sense of whatever they call it the roar of the greasepaint the smell of the crowd or something like that. No one is really like and I can't tell you when's the right time to start, but don't wait forever. Try to get some experience that a prospect would consider making it worthwhile to risk their money on, before you ask someone to do that.

Brian  
Yeah, I think it's often like when it comes down to procrastination on this, people like to stay in the movie rather than in the game. In the movie, you can sit back and watch what happens passively, but once you're in the game you got to play the game and there's a chance you could lose the game but that's what makes winning the game so much sweeter.

David  
Right? But remember, you always pay to see the movie but sometimes in the game they pay you so important to.

Brian  
So thanks for that. So, when we talk about people writing up the ranks, especially this is I think it's coming more into your area. We're coaching more experienced copywriters and marketers. What I want to know is I'm as impatient as anyone so How do you lead from that ladder of success as a copywriter or marketers and the example that I gave to you.

Brian  
With a guest on your amazing podcast, Justin Goff who not too long ago, I hadn't heard of him and a lot of people hadn't, but now we know that he's one of the best marketers and copywriters around. So how do leap frog the ladder of success? 

David  
Okay, it's a good question. I think I know a little more about what's going on behind the scenes with Justin, which I'll talk about in a minute. But I want to bring up an old cliche, which I think is really apropos here. An overnight success is after only 20 years. I mean, Justin has not been in the public eye. And then when I say public, I mean within our entrepreneurial, direct marketing copywriting niche. He's not been in the public eye for very long.

David  
But before he did that, he founded or co founded three companies, and the last company he co founded, reached 23 million. He was not the face of the company. Although he did tell an interesting story once that they had to do a radio ad and his customer was sort of a gruff, 60-65, 65-70 year old, white, conservative American man, and they couldn't find the right voice over talent.

David  
So Justin, who was what 31 I don't know 30 he did it and his voice work perfectly.

Brian  
That deep voice.

David  
He does. I mean, maybe he's an old soul. Anyway. I've known him for a few years myself. I did not know Him in this posture. And being in this posture is a guru as that funnel guy,  but I consider him a friend. I really liked him. I consider him a colleague. I really respect him. He's networking for a long time he was in that mastermind I was telling you about with me and Carl.

David  
He's been in other masterminds. He's become friends with our friends at your my friends with Agora Financial. So he was building a network and building relationships and learning stuff and certainly learning a lot on the job. And yeah, he's still relatively new in this space as a guru, but boy, he's definitely earned the right to be there. 

Brian  
Yeah. That's the way I see it, too. There's really no such thing as a real overnight success. I mean, you can't buy a copywriting course one day, and three months later, I suppose you can teach what you're learning to other people but like you're alluding to before, it's not based in reality. It's not based on real world experience. So that is not a good coaching scenario to get into.

David  
There are a lot of coaches, unfortunately, it seems like these days who've done what you're talking about and all I can say is caveat, coaching client caveat emptor. You know, beware. Check it out.

Brian  
And make sure the person like you said it's got a track record in the real world.

David  
Yeah. When I started coaching, I hadn't been writing copy that long. But I had been a professional writer, and I'd been a bureau chief. So I was an editor. So it wasn't like I was completely new to writing or completely new to working with people. And I certainly learned a lot over the years. 

Brian  
Yeah, that makes sense. So let me ask you this. Doesn't have to be someone you've personally coached, but someone you've known. Who is the funniest or the weirdest, The most quirky copywriter that you have known?

David  
Okay, well, I thought I would pick a different one than anyone I've known because this guy just takes the cake. His name was Mel Martin. And he was known as the world's slowest copywriter. He could take like a month just working on his lead on his opening sentence. He lived in New York City, he was in ill health. He had 12 different specialists helping him with all of his different diseases. He pretty much invented the bullet point as we know it today.

Brian  
Yeah, I've got some good stuff and it's a nice.

David  
Yeah, let me just read you a few. Cruise Ship rapes. The uncensored facts which even the news media won't touch. How to get an Oval Office tour of the White House. Get a hotel suite while paying for room. Now these days and stuff might not be all that shocking or new. But when he came out with that, like 10-20 years ago for Marty Huddleston in boardroom, it was like groundbreaking, as revolutionary as he was the first one. And he was really odd.

David  
He lived in an apartment in New York City and at first Street and First Avenue. He had this huge balcony with thousands of plants. And I don't think he liked to travel and because he wrote us all he had trouble making a living and Huddleston eventually took him on and boardroom with the salary.

David  
But he wrote some of the most famous lines, he's a very quirky person. I don't know if I would have loved to have met him. I'm not sure it would have been a pleasant conversation. He didn't like people. I mean, some copywriters don't like people, he really didn't like it. He just like to sit there and write.

David  
And he had these huge, huge cross referenced catalogs which eventually put on computer of his bullet points which were called fascinations. The term fascinations originally was developed either by him or by Marty, or maybe by Jean Schwartz, somebody at boardroom.

Brian  
Is he the one that wrote the line? What never to eat on an airplane?

David  
He did. That was him.

Brian  
Yeah, That one's still relevant for today. Definitely very much.

David  
Yeah, that's easy. Anything with the airline wants. Bring your own food.

Brian  
Yes, definitely. That's really interesting. He's another one that I never got a chance to meet though but would absolutely love to. Given that you don't really do personal one on one coaching with the copywriters, How can people started learning about awesome sales copy? How can they find out from you more about this?

David  
Sure. So, the study in practice I recommended, there's a list of books. I have have two lists of books and two podcasts which I'll get to my podcast in just a second and webinars. There are some teachers, find an experienced teacher, preferably someone with a little gray hair or no hair, who's been around a while who you like and possibly simple writing system or copy chief. I have a podcast, we think we're close to 80 episodes and you can get real stuff out of it. 

Brian  
Yeah, it's one of my favorite podcasts.

David  
Thank you. So that's Copywriters Podcast.

David  
copywriterspodcast.com you can go there and there are two episodes on what copywriters should read, parts one and two. And I have some books that beginners should read there. Also my book is included in there that's good at some point as you read more, write more and watch more videos and maybe take some home study courses start mingling with grizzled old pros, masterminds and seminars, some kind of event like that. And again, like I said, Get some skin in the game to a product with your own money. You'll learn faster that way than anything else?

David  
So my podcast is copywriterspodcast.com, book is Breakthrough Copywriting and my website if for someone who's maybe a little more advanced or once a critique on some copy that a lot is weighing on it is, garfinkelcoaching.com.

Brian  
Yeah I especially advice, it would be a great idea to get a critique if it's an important piece of copy. If you have a budget to mail it or if you're perhaps a freelancer who is writing for a client, you could do a lot worse and then get a copywriting critique from someone like you so that's definitely an amazing idea. And the book and the podcast should be no brainers.

David  
Thank you. Yeah.

Brian  
So Definitely go ahead and do that, guys. I really appreciate you coming on to share all those info with us, David. I really appreciate your time. I know you're very busy and like I say you do a lot of interviews. So you got your own podcast as well. So you're on the other side of the mic a lot of the time to talk, So I really appreciate you taking the time out to do one extra interview for me and I'd love you to come back sometime whenever you're free and we can do this all again If you have time, you're always welcome.

David  
Yeah I'd love to. That would be fun.

Brian  
Yeah, same here. So I thank you from the bottom of my heart for all the great information that you've given us. Everyone needs to go to copywriterspodcast.com.

David  
Yeah, copywriterspodcast.com.

Brian  
So do that now, get the book and listen to his podcast and thanks for joining us.

Brian  
Okay. Thank you, Brian.

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