Announcer: Welcome to the geniuses of copywriting podcast, a peek into the minds and strategies of the world's greatest copywriters, marketers and persuasion experts, and now here's your host, Brian Cassingena.
Brian: Hi Guys. Welcome back to the genius for copywriting podcast. It's my absolute pleasure and privilege to welcome the one and only David Deutsch year to the podcast. He's one of the legends, all time legends. If you studied copywriting at all, you will know this man's name, he's got his start on Madison Avenue back in the day, at Ogilvy and Mather, you know, if you know those names, you know that that's steeped in direct response history. Then he went from Madison Avenue, more into a direct response copywriting environment. He's worked with companies like Agora, Rodale, and others like that. He's working with plenty of different companies and plenty of different copywriters working on the copy and making it to convert higher. So, when you think of top copywriters, you know, it wouldn't be the geniuses of copywriting podcast without this man. So I really appreciate you coming on to the call today, David. Thank you very much for joining us, how are you today.
David: I'm great. Thanks. It's my pleasure to be here. Thanks for the awesome introduction
Brian: Yeah, thank you for coming on. Well, that was just a couple of basics that I know about you, but I'd love to hear more about what you're doing and where you've come from and how you got to where you are today because it's rich and interesting story.
David: Well I kind of fell into where I got today, to some extent. I started working at Ogilvy and Mather and was in a word processing department and kind of when, you know, gee, I'd like to try my hand at writing this stuff. Yeah. So I got some experience doing that, worked my way up and became a copywriter and other, you know, ad agencies. And one day I discovered a Jay Abraham and I was like, wow, this is like, you know, advertising can be accountable, and advertising can sell stuff directly. This is, this is so exciting. And, you know, Ogilvy kind of prepared me for that a little bit because Ogilvy had a, I mean, he was Madison Avenue, TV commercial kind of guy, but he had a direct response side of it. You love direct mail, you used it. And so when I discovered the Abraham was like, I want to do that, I want to work with companies that sell stuff directly.
David: And I, kind of wanted to be a junior, Jay Abraham and wound up getting more into that direct response copywriting. And then I worked with Jim Rutz, who gave me some great training in, in direct response copywriting. And then I started doing stuff on my own for clients like boardroom and Rodale and Agora and uh, you know, that's what I'm still doing today except now, in addition to doing writing, I also work with a lot of companies to help improve their writing capabilities, work with their in house writers. Sometimes I work with, their freelance writers to take the copy to the next level.
Brian: Yeah, that's something really interesting as well because I really believe strongly in the power of mentoring and having mentors like you, so whoever's on the receiving end of that must be a very lucky person.
David: Yeah, so a little bruised probably, but you know, that's the whole... The place that really interests me, right, is not so much teaching people this technique or that technique. Like yeah, there are interesting techniques you could use, you know, here are the five ways to open a, you know, to open a story...five ways to do this, you know, sell benefits, don't sell features. Now this little trick, that little trick, these structures, these templates, but a lot of it, so much of it has to do with the mindset when you're writing, you know, and if you ever talk to someone like, you know, Gary Halbert when he was alive, right? Gary Halbert talked the same way he wrote like he could sell you something in person and that was the way he told it on paper. And I think how many people when they sit down to write, they get into this writing mode. Like, oh headline, they, you know, I have to do this type of headline, you know, this is a killer thing and it's going to be great and pile on the benefits and they, they don't think about what they would do if they were just sitting across the table from someone, someone they cared about even trying to convince them to take this action to buy this product. They wouldn't be so hypey, they wouldn't be so saying things that make people roll their eyes.
Brian: Yeah it reminds me of an exercise I would pay dearly to go to a seminar like this where Gary Halbert's seminar had all the attendees write a letter, two letters to their mom, like one that like, "I love you mom" on one, and one "I hate you mom". And designed to get that, to get that emotion out and really write to a person that you care rather than just using the mechanics of, of direct response which work. But yeah, they're just a framework.
David: Yeah, I was at that seminar too. It was very powerful. Gary makes you put a stamp on it, but um, you know, that's true. It's like people have this amazing ability to persuade inside them, right? They've been persuading ever since they were a little baby crying to persuade people to take care of them and pay attention to them and they, you know, and every day we persuade people to go to this movie, to marry us, to go out with us, to complete this job for us, you know, in a million ways. We persuade people and then we sit down to write and we kind of get into writing mode. Like we're back in school now. It's like, oh, I gotta do this. Oh, don't forget to do a lot of benefits. Got to make the benefits as big as possible. And we don't think about all the ways we build trust, all the ways we become credible and likable to people in copy and how, how much more important that is, you know, we buy from people we like and trust. We don't buy from the salesman. That makes us the biggest promise.
Brian: Yeah. True. And this, this is what I've found when I've done some direct sales jobs, and door to door or over the phone or whatever, this is back in the day, you know. I learned early on and this is probably 10 years ago that, that it was all about the mindset, which is what you mentioned before, if I just pulled out the phrases and sayings that the sales organization taught you and just tried, to try to kind of slam dunk every, every one into the sale. That didn't work. But when I, I think when I, when I really spoke to that person as one human to another, that was something along the lines of the, of the mindset that you're talking about.
David: Yeah. Yeah. And it's amazing what happens when you do that, you know, that's what really great copy does and it's a scary thing to do because you're kind of like, you know, giving up all these things that you've relied on for all these years. Yeah. The manipulation of words in certain ways, the making it sound like this sort of thing is supposed to sound and you're kind of like going out on a limb, taking a page to build trust or to initially build trust or some kind of credibility in a headline rather than, Oh, here's all the money you're gonna make or you know, we're really going to cure arthritis with this thing or whatever it is. And a lot of my working with, with people is it takes a while to break people of that habit. You know, it's like, is this it? No, no, this is why that's not it. This is why, you know, alright again, try it again. Try it again. And then, you know, you break through and you know, that can be a painful process if your, if your ego is attached to your right.
Brian: So what's, what's the kind of way that you, when you're working with a writer, you help separate their ego from you know, just as you, as you just said, get the ego out of the way so they can, they can really communicate with the other person.
David: Yeah. Well that's an interesting question. You know, I think the people that are
David: the best, you know, become the best writers are able to do that inherently. No, not you know, they're not identified with what they write. They don't see what they write as being them. I mean, it hurts, right? You want the person reading your copy to like it, you know. You want David Deutsch to like this copy that you wrote, but you know, it's kind of like going to the gym. The pain is what builds the muscle, you know? It's like, "Oh yeah, that hurts. So good, I'm building muscle", you know, and you know, sometimes it's just kind of talking to them about that and saying, listen, I'm, you know, I'm going to be hard on this and you know, I'm not always going to remember to say nice things about it. You know, you're, you're working with me because you're a good writer. Right? Like we know you're already, like at a certain level. You can write. You can do this stuff you've been doing, but to go to the next level it's kind of like you've got to, you know, die to what you were before and be reborn. Not to get into, too much into religious iconography.
David: But it's kind of like that you have to born again and you have to let go of that stuff that you've relied on and that you've gotten damn good at. You know, the people that I work with, they're pretty good at, you know, piling on benefits and, you know, doing all that stuff and using the formulas and, and all that. But to get to the next level, that they've got to kind of let go of that to some extent.
Brian: Yeah, you're right, it takes a brave writer because, you know, you want to, you're looking at creating a marketing piece with that, all the elements that you've been trained that have to be there, otherwise it's going to be a flop. So do you find that, I imagine that you find that, that people are somewhat resistant to this. Are they, can they be coached over the line or did they take a lot of work or, or do they sometimes surprise you in, in a way that come along? Or is it really hard work for a mentor like you to get people to really embrace this mindset?
David: Yeah, no, I wouldn't say it's hard work. I think it's just like you said, it takes a certain degree of courage. It takes a certain degree of, you know, like getting knocked down and coming back for more, you know, it's like, here's why it's not where it needs to be. You know, John Carlton tells of going through 16 drafts of the first thing he wrote for Gary Halbert. Sixteenth graft was worse than the other 15 drafts, but the 17th graph was great.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah.
David: It doesn't have to be a, you know, a painful process, or you know, you know, you, you feel like you're, you know, a lot of people that you just feel like you're learning because of that, you know? If it was easy, it wouldn't be, you know, it wouldn't be what needs to be done. It wouldn't be working. You're going to feel that breaking through. And as you say, it does take courage to kind of face the ways in which your writing isn't there yet. You know what I mean? It's funny. People come to someone and say, I want to be a better writer. I'm going to get to that next level, a level or you know, whatever. And the way to do that is you have to see why your writing isn't there yet. Yeah. Yeah. Most people, you know, to some extent, people don't want to see why their writing isn't there yet. They just want to know what they have to like pile on top of it to make it.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. They want to hear um, a yeah, because this is what a part of me wants to hear, you know, oh, your writing's already perfect, but to get to the next level you need to do this and do this. But that's, that's, that's never the case.
David: You know, the other thing too I think is it's kind of like with music,
David: where you can tell when something's out of tune, you know, to some extent what we're doing is training the writer to tell when his writing is out of tune so that they hear it, they see it because that's what writing is really. I don't know that my first draft is inherently better than anyone else's first draft, but when I read my first draft, I could see what it needs. I can hear "oh that's not - they're not going to believe that. I need to do this and, and so I know how to revise it. And that's, I think what a large part of training someone in copywriting is, is just improving their ear. So they, they hear what the copy needs.
Brian: Yeah. It's interesting because a lot of copywriters seems to be musicians as well. So maybe -- maybe the two are connected.
David: Yeah, I've always found that interesting. Yeah. And the two probably are connected in a certain way. You're putting words together, you're putting notes together. You're composing.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. Because I interviewed David Garfinkel and he's got his guitar in the background and, and they'll know that the guys who have the jam sessions at Kevin Rogers, a copy chief live, I still be meaning to go to one of them. So yeah, it's really, it's really interesting how the same thing that makes a good copywriter seems to be linked with musicianship as well, which makes me glad I was playing guitar for 10 years before I ever started writing. So maybe I've got a chance.
David: And you know, that kind of tells you something, whether you're a musician or not, just like music is about listening. Writing is about listening. About listening to your own words that you've said and hearing them as a prospect would hear them and being able to kind of have those same reactions like, I don't believe this. I don't--you know, "so what", "I don't care". This is not, you know, or you know, a rolling of the eyes like, "yeah, right". That's, that's going to happen. That's true. That's, I don't believe that. So you then you then respond to that. I mean a heavy handed way to do that for instance. I know that sounds unbelievable, but let me show you why that, you know.
Brian: Yeah. Because I'm wondering exactly how you, how you do that. I mean, do you just like go through each statement on a piece of copy and, and uh, and, and think to yourself, read that statement, say "so what, or "Oh, I didn't believe that, that claim" or, or what have you?
David: Yeah, that's certainly a good exercise to do, um, is to just, again, the listening, it's kind of like read it. Something's got to go walk in you. Like you got to feel like, oh, I want some proof for that. Right. I need more proof. I needed more. I don't trust you yet enough to take this, you know, I don't trust you yet enough to buy from you, but you know, you could do worse than to go through your copy and see every fact that you stayed or claim you make and say, do I need something to back that up? It doesn't have to be a big thing, you know, it could be a little, you know, source of where you got it from or back up from the media--that media also said this. It could be, it could be a lot of times, proof is just -- I mean we can get a, we could do a whole section on proof, don't get me started on that. You know, a lot of times proof is just common sense. It's just saying to someone, you know, you make a statement and then you say, well, you could see that in your own life as being true because of x, y, and z, or it's just like when this happens. Then they "oh, that is just like that, oh so that must be true because it's just like that. I know that that's true. So that must be true".
Brian: Yeah, that's a good way of doing it, you know, comparing it to something they already know it's true.
David: Right, right. But you got to do that work for them, like so people, the one thing I think people don't understand, it's not that readers are lazy even though they may well be, but they're not going to put the effort into figuring things out. Right? So you've had a far more than most people think. You've got to connect the dots for people. I call it connecting the dots, right? You can just say something and expect them to go, "oh, I see how that proves that thing" or "I see how that could be a benefit for what he's been talking about". You have to really kind of spell things out, you know, and this is why that is a benefit for what I've been talking about because it links in this way or you know, you give proof and you say, so you could see that this is, you know, again -- heavy handed. But you, you really want to be explaining, you really want to be connecting dots for people. You can't leave them to do that.
Brian: Yeah, that's something that a lot of copywriters, myself included, have trouble with over the years, you know, you want to be clever and sound intelligent, but you leave too many dots to connect in your marketing piece and it's going to flop.
David: Right. Because the reader won't connect them. And so they'll have this vague feeling of disconnection and lack. But you think what everything in there that needs to go in there.
Brian: Yeah. And, of course everyone thinks their market is different, that their market is more sophisticated, their market is more intelligent. How do you tackle this with people who really are sophisticated? Because it's no different there, I think. You know, if you do the same thing there and connect the dots, but it's in a different way or do you just use the same techniques?
David: Yeah, it's pretty much the same. Even people are sophisticated, haven't got time to like even someone capable of reading a paper on nuclear physics, you know, when they sit down to read your copy or don't sit down, they're probably standing up. You know, they don't want to put that same amount of effort into reading your copy. They want it to be simple and go in easy and, not be a burden to them. In addition, they've done studies that have shown that the simpler something is the more believable it is.
Brian: Hm. Interesting. Because if you make it too complex and it sounds like you're trying to explain it too much and there's some sort of ulterior motive maybe.
David: Yes. You over-explain it, it makes people suspicious if you're sophisticated and if they don't understand it, you know, or if it's difficult to understand, you know, it's kind of like, you know, if you think about those things that we, that people believe, right? Like a stitch in time saves nine. It's believable because it's simple and it's also believable because it rhymes, but you know, even if it rhymed and it was complex, it wouldn't be as believable as that little zingy "oh that must be true because it's so short and simple and you know, comes out so nicely". As you probably know, there's also for every saying like that, there's the opposite saying, you know, I'm not facile enough to think of what they are. But you know, the stitch in time saying, right -- there's another saying that's like penny earned is a penny saved that contradicts that.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. These old sayings stick around because they just simple, you know, and they're memorable. You don't have to memorize 15 or 20 words. It's just like five words.
David: I've always kind of felt like you've got to give people the ability to make your sales pitch for you after they've read the thing. It's almost like you have to kind of imagine that this guy or this woman is going to read your copy and have to explain why they just paid all this money to their spouse. And would they be able to do that? Would they just be-- I don't know, it's something that will help me make money. I'm not sure what, you know, would they be able to-- to have a very logical, you know, simple argument as to why it's unique and why it's worth that money. And if you kind of get that, it's a great way to, to write copy and it's also a great test, you know, you give it to someone to read. You say, okay, tell me why I should buy this.
David: You know, if they give your argument very logically and coherently and compellingly go, "oh yeah, I did my job". But if they just sort of say, I don't know, it just sort of sounded good and it could make be a lot of money or whatever. I'm not sure how something to do with, you know, reselling postage stamps or something. Then, you know, if you don't have that, your copy isn't that powerful. A lot of times, of course people --the beauty of that too is a lot of times people do have to explain a purchase to their spouse and if they don't, they kind of have to explain it to themselves. You know, if you've kind of emotionally got them to want to buy, they still have to have a rational argument. And so if they're being able to do that, they'll be able to explain to themselves why they're paying all this money for this thing. You're selling them.
Brian: Yeah. Is this something that you largley tackle in the big idea or the hook? So some of the big ideas that I've seen some from a over the years, uh, I'm really not, don't just find the offer to the reader but, but they allow that, the purchaser to explain the offer to someone else, like a, um, like one was a, PBX in the phone lines going across America and it was a new, a new railroad across America and that was the, uh, um, the metaphor they used to explain this communication system. Um, and that gives the purchaser, a way to compare it to a known variable, you know, to their husband or wife.
David: Right, right. That's what we've been talking about. You're absolutely right. They can then say to them, this is like a--this is like the railroad was. Yeah. In the old days, connecting all these things together, right?
Brian: Yeah. "Oh, so this is a communication system that connects everyone together. That's why you bought it". Yeah.
David: Right, right. "Oh, and so that's just like the railroads were a huge investment opportunity, you know, this is a good investment opportunity for us". You know?
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. So that gives that an argument to the purchaser who may not have been a, you know, a, like a creative enough to come up with something like that by themselves. You've got to give that to him. That's what you're saying. Yeah. So have you come up, have you come up with something like that? This is something that, I really focused on learning how to do in the last couple of years since I've really been studying Agora and there'd be an and up with that fuck with that big idea that really helps explain everything in such a simple way. I mean, it's not something you can sort of explain.
David: There's a couple of things. One is, and I've got like a whole course on this in terms of creativity, which is, kind of a systematic way of going about generating ideas, right? So you look at this thing, this PBX system, you know? "Okay, what do I think of when I think of--when I look at this? Like what associations come to mind? Well it looks like Spaghetti. You look at all these network connecting each other. It looks like, you know, like a maze, like a puzzle. It kind of looks like a map with all these things going across. I don't know, it almost looks like a railroad map with all things kind of going like that. "Oh, railroad! That's kind of interesting because the railroad was originally high tech".
Brian: Yeah, yeah, back in the day. Yeah.
David: Back in the day and was a huge investment opportunity. So I know what I'll do, I'll take this and I'll relate it to the railroad and I'll, I'll say it's like a new railroad going across America.
David: You just have to keep it--just have to keep asking your mind questions, you know? Because if you just sort of sit there and try to think, what's the big idea that I should do? Your mind will just wander and not necessarily do anything but really keep asking like, you know, um, and that's, that's part of what's in my, my creativity thing is like a series of questions you can ask like what's the opposite of this? Like, well, the opposite of connecting is disconnecting, you know, how could I have a big idea with that, you know, what, you could do something like, you know, the disconnection of America. America has become disconnected and this is going to connect it again sooner start the disconnection, stupid idea, but you get the idea of how you do the opposite of things. Like, you know, um, I always loved that great. Arthur Johnson,
David: headline where everyone was. Everyone was saying, you know, everyone knew you shouldn't drink coffee and you shouldn't smoke cigarettes and you shouldn't eat bad food and you should drink a lot of water. And he did the opposite. You know, he came out, he, he did the opposite for, for a promotion for Dr Douglas because Dr Douglas was very skeptical about all that stuff. So you know, Dr Douglas said, you know, you don't have to drink all that water and it's all right to drink coffee and you don't have to exercise yourself to death. And it was very, it was great because that's what people want to hear. Of course. It's different from what everyone else is saying too. Yeah. And it's so different from what everyone else is saying. So doing, you know, kind of, again, that kind of question, what's the opposite of this? What if I divided it up into the different pieces that had an idea? What if I added something else? You know, a lot of. Well, of course the railroad thing is kind of an adding something else. But yeah, there's different ways you can do it. A lot of times adding something elses, like current events, you tie it into, you know, you tie it into something that's going on right now, or you tie it into a celebrity or something, you know?
David: who's a famous celebrity these days, you want to hold that, you know, the Donald Trump secret to whatever, you know, it connects to Donald Trump because it's because it's, you know, phone lines in Donald Trump's that was on the phone. I don't know if they ever did in something or other that we can find a way to, something about, about the wool, maybe building the celebrities. People always want to know what is it celebrities are doing and sometimes you just like think, let's find a way to tie it into this, right? Like don't be too quick to reject things like the celebrity secret, like go out and see how it, like maybe celebrities were the first people to get these new pbx phone line to whatever. Maybe there's some way that you know that we can tie celebrities in general, you know, because they're using it or they're affected by it or something.
Brian: Yeah. And you mentioned the current celebrity and then everybody knows him. It's the instant connect. And I've got a thought alterior motive for this because I've just started working on a, on a big package for a client and, and it's, I'm at the idea stage or I want to come up with that one that, uh, that I can base the whole thing around. So, um, you know, you've given me some great ammo to do that here
David: that said it's kind of funny that said about the importance of asking questions and active kind of an active thinking at the same time. What also works is a period where you don't think about anything, you know, you just sit quietly, almost kind of meditatively and just let whatever comes into your head come into your head. And which is why people have ideas in the shower because inherently how people are when they're showering is sort of meditative state. The water is coming down like a waterfall and all of a sudden this thing comes to them. So at the same time you do that question and you do that act and stuff. It's good sometimes to also just sit quietly and see what, what comes to you.
Brian: Yeah. It could be a waterfall of pbx is across America, something like that.
David: Right? Right. I like the best ideas I've had kind of have popped into my head when I've just been quiet or
Brian: it's never when you sit down and think I'm going to think of a big idea, I'm going to think of an amazing idea. That's not how it works. You know, I've never done that successfully as a, like you say when a random like him in the shower or, or thinking about something else, especially if you know, you're not focused, you know, watching tv or something. Uh, you got that a meditative state.
David: Um, that's when it tends to happen, but you have to have the preparation. You have to have, you know, activated your mind, your subconscious to be thinking about it. Things like, Oh, what does this remind me of? It reminds me of trains. Oh, this, you know, like Spaghetti, how can you know, be part of it. And then kind of go off and just kind of sit quietly and hopefully into your head pops, you know, the new railroad across America. Like, oh, let that groundwork beforehand.
Brian: The other way that, uh, um, that I heard from the, uh, via Gora guys when outside a, uh, a event in Orlando with a, they actually, um, right down on, on a, on a google sheet, one, one big idea each day. It doesn't matter if it's good or bad, if it's useful or not useful. They're just getting into the habit of writing one down. So they ended up with like a database of big ideas that they can draw from. I don't know if it gets him in the habit of, uh, of, uh, uh, thinking of these big ideas, even if they don't have a project in mind for that.
David: Well, of course, you know, the brain works by habit. You know, if every day you sit down and come up with a big idea or, or 10 big ideas like insulted to says, um, and they don't have to be big ideas necessarily, but if you just come up with 10 ideas, your brain will eventually catch on. Oh, everyday I'm supposed to come up with 10 big ideas. I can be working on this, you know, in the office. Uh, it, it just kind of prepares you and it gets your brain in the habit. It's a great thing to do. It's like every day, you know, if you write every day, your brain kind of gets, you know, like, oh, it's time to right now.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. That's how I got into this, not writing because it's like a bad midnight here, um, to, for a lot of people would be too late to write, but I'm always waking at this time anyway. And that's because I've just gotten into the habit of writing at this time, you know, uh, um, I used to watch tv, but uh, but now I don't watch a great deal of, of TV at all and now live in Bangkok and they, they do have some cable channels, but most of it's in the local language, so it's not a great deal on TV. Um, but I'm not a big TV watcher anymore anyway. So, uh, that's kind of how I got into the habit of sitting down at the computer writing a during thing and sometimes into the night.
David: Yeah, that's a great. It's a great thing to have regular habits. I don't always do that of course, but you know, oh, this is great. Like my, my, you know, it's predictable and my brain likes that predictability
Brian: in, uh, in his book on writing a Steven King said that he writes every day, but Christmas, uh, and even in after he's had his Turkey or France in a food coming sneaks down to the study. And so he literally writes everyday that. So you said big fat books, two or three a year.
David: It's very much what if he still write that much? A lot of what he does is of course content for newsletters and things like that. So he's always got something, you know?
Brian: Yeah, yeah. I mean it was probably 15 years ago when I bought the mother of all offers, which is like his, like everything that he, that he sells and have that shipped over from the states. And, and uh, that was three huge boxes. And, and since then he's probably produced more, more courses and content and seminars and then the 10 other normal human beings will ever produced in their entire life. So it's a massive body of work, but he's another pretty productive one.
David: Yeah, it shows you the power of that predictability. You know, he writes every morning, he got times allotted, you know, to write a.
Brian: and I think that, um, uh, being on, on social media as much as I am, I see a lot of people are posting, posting their pictures from the beach in Bali and, and what are the forest and uh, and also claiming to be, you know, these seven figure online entrepreneurs and, and, um, uh, of course the, the sitting on the beach, it's probably only a few minutes of their day, the rest of their days waking up on the, on their actual business if they are a higher number. It's a painted picture to other people that, uh, that all they do is sit on the beach all day and the money comes in automatically and the copy gets written and the business gets run. Um, you know, from their phones on the beach, which is, which is not necessarily the truth. So I think that's a trap that people fall into thinking that, uh, you know, they can work a 15 minutes a day and then, and then, and then make all this money. I'm might just doesn't happen that way.
David: No, no, it doesn't, you know, it's a nice. It's a nice fantasy anyway.
Brian: Yeah, yeah. Well it's what business opportunity pitches have been based on for so many years, um, work, work an hour a day and get it paid all this money and otherwise who would buy a $2,000 a information product here that said, you know, work eight hour days and work 80 hour weeks and, and uh, and struggled for years and then finally started ending. Somebody that sells pitch doesn't really have the same ring to it as, as work 15 minutes a day for $10,000 a month. Right, right.
David: Know, it's funny. There's always were talking before about the opposite. There's always a place for the opposite. You know, it's like, um, for so long exercise stuff was sold as the same way. Oh, it's so easy. It's only 10 minutes a day. You're not going to break a sweat and then p nine dx came out and it was like, you got to work hard, you're going to get you ready for this. You know, Lo and behold, the opposite also works, you know, because people do like to be challenged and they do like, part of them knows what the reality is, you know, no pain, no gain, you know, and, and maybe it's partly that, maybe it's also partly that's a whole other section of the market that hadn't been marketed to was the people. Then they're okay with it being hard.
Brian: P90X had a good idea as well. But I'm, the same thing happens in entrepreneurship, you know,
Brian: Gary Vaynerchuk is, is the most famous guide always talking about hustling
Brian: and uh, uh, being so busy that you're always working. And, and, uh, Gene Simmons was another guy who said that, but now I see I'm being busier. Sit on social media. When you're so busy, you've got hardly have time for anything else. It is seen as, as being high status. So you show yourself traveling and, and always working. And, uh, if you could do down at the beach, you've got the laptop and you're typing at a south Florida, that kind of level of, of activity on your business. Um, we're not just sitting back and relaxing that is now seen as a, as a high status person that you should follow on social media. So yeah, the opposite is true there too. So, um,
Brian: I won't keep you much longer because I know you're very busy. I just wanted to ask you one question, which I'm very intrigued about. Um, and um, uh, uh, I wanted to get this straight from the source. Who's the weirdest quirkiest copywriter that, you know, I'm living or deceased that, that, you know, of in the industry?
David: No, it's an interesting question. The competition on that is very tough. You just pick one, pick one and go with it. Myself included. But, you know, you know, the quirkiest really was Jim Rutz, you know, back in the day who was a, I mentioned before, it was the, uh, the writer that I worked with and just learn so much amazing stuff from. But, you know, he was almost like a sheldon on Big Bang theory, you know, just in terms of social awkwardness. Goodness. Yeah. You know, and uh, which is of course funny because, you know, on, on, on the page, you know, in his writing, he was
David: so interesting. And so drew, you know, drew you in, you know, and you know, under the social awkwardness, he was a very warm and giving and you know, tremendously generous person. He's helped me in so many ways. But you always kind of like, you know, like with Sheldon, you always kind of had to keep an eye on him as to, you know, who may a waitress that he was liable to offend you know. No, you couldn't just say things like that. It sounds like a fun guy. He was very fun and God, he was so intelligent and so interesting. And, and his writing is so
David: unlike anyone else's, you know, it's just interesting writing, you know, a lot of writers aren't great writers. They're great salesmen. They're great, they're great at knowing what psychological buttons to push. But you wouldn't look at their writing irrespective of the selling and the psychological appropriateness of it and say, oh, that's great writing. That's great putting words together. That's so clever, that's so interesting how he did that and unexpected. But with Jim, you would, you would just go, wow, that's just--no matter what, yeah, he can take any subject and make it interesting. He's got a couple of books. One of them is mega--mega something, and that have to do with his, uh, open church and the other one is the open church and one of them or both of them begin with a little history of Christianity and kind of how it evolved and he just makes it into the most interesting couple of paragraphs of the history of Christianity you'd ever want to read Does it in such an interesting way that it's -- yeah. So you can get a hold of his books do, because...
Brian: Yeah I will check if they're on Amazon. So, um, what about you David? I know that, um, that while we just touched on here, as awesome as it was, you know, you've got plenty more where that came from. How can people find out more about you?
David: Let me also say too, by the way, I need to put in a plug for Brian Kurtz is coming out with a--I guess it's kind of a course based on Jim's, you know, writings and legacy. Yeah, I met Brian in the US. He's really nice. He's very nice. He's very nice. So I would be remiss not to mention that he's interested in me. It'll either be out soon or if you're watching this a couple of months from now it, you know, it may already be out. So watch out for that.
Brian: Let's check that out. What about you, David? How can they get on your information?
David: People can go to davidldeutsch.com that's d a v i d and then l as in Larry and then d e u t s c h dot com and there is a free report that you can get there and you can sign up on my list and then I'll let you know, in addition to getting regular emails from me of interesting things. I'll let you know when my new course comes out.
Brian: Yeah, because that's the next question I was going to ask. You mentioned a course before.
David: Yeah. Yeah. It's being put together right now. It's being edited--well, it's edited, but it's being assembled and gotten ready. So it should be, should be set in about a month and it looks like it will also include the creativity course that will be in there in some way as a bonus or a part of it. Is it a copywriting course? Yeah,
Brian: definitely. Anyone who's listening to this should definitely be getting on that list because one of the, one of the, secret weapons I've used over the years to get on certain people's email lists and Brian Kurtz, you mentioned this one, Dan Kennedy obviously and John Carlton and guides we've mentioned like that. So get the emails and read their emails because they're not just great, examples of what good copywriting is, but you know, you get a, you get first dibs on, on things like this new course and that's coming out, like yours David. So, I highly recommend if you've got as much out of this interview is what I did and go and sign up for that, that list right now. So I'll drop a link on this, on youtube and on my sites and on the, if you're listening on Itunes, it's the David Deutsch, d e u t s c h.
David: Yeah. Very good!
Brian: And uh, yeah, so definitely do that and sign up and I'll be there right there with you. So yeah, I appreciate you coming along, David. Thank you very much. Like I said, geniuses of copywriting wouldn't be--the name wouldn't be accurate if you weren't on here. So, I really appreciate the time that you've spent with us today and the help that you've given us on our project. So I'd like to thank you very much and we'll have to do this again sometime.
David: No, that would be great. Thank you for inviting me. I enjoyed talking with you. An absolutely pleasure. All right, thank you very much. Take care.
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