Announcer: Welcome to the geniuses of Copywriting podcast a peek into the minds and strategies of the world's greatest copywriters, marketers, and persuasion experts and now, here's your host, Brian Cassingena,
Brian: Hey listeners, welcome back to the Geniuses of Copywriting podcast. It's a great privilege to welcome a good friend of mine, Chris Laub. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly, Chris.
Chris: Yes, you got it. Thanks man.
Brian: Cheers man. I mean always get the same thing with my last name, Cassingena. So, I probably got it a lot worse than you, but I want to make sure I say your name right because, I've grown to know you a bit as a copywriter and another person. We finally met up in person at TNC the other week, which is cool. But yeah, what a time to have you on the show because it's really fascinating some of the stuff you're doing.
Brian: I know that you've been around for a while doing copy and you certainly have the copy chops because you got me to pay five grand for a course with you. So, and that have been well worth it. And, and, so I know you know your stuff, but for those of, out there listening to this podcast who don't know who Chris Laub is, tell us a bit about yourself.
Chris: Okay, cool. So all this 60 second version of my story, I was doing B2B sales for a very successful marketing agency in LA. Super Cliche, but I had started to travel after my girlfriend and I broke up. It was going to Bali, Columbia, and just traveling overseas by myself. My dad's friend sent me a copy of the four hour work week, I read. I was like, yeah, I'm going to be the next Tim Ferriss.
Chris: So I saved up a bunch of money, paid off my debts, quit my job and have been working for myself online ever since. That was at the end of 2010. So about to have, in the next two years or so, we're going to have my tenure quit my job anniversary, which is, been even more sentimental for me than my birthday. So yeah, I wouldn't go in the Internet marketing rabbit hole was experimenting with SEO, Affiliate Marketing, AdSense websites, trying to do a PPC agency and stumbled upon a copywriting was using my skills for the other businesses that I was trying to get off the ground and ended up just kind of failure after failure.
Chris: And finally got a little kind of micro reputation management agency off the ground doing lead generation via direct mail. And that was the first time I really had success with any of the marketing that I was trying to do. Businesses that I was trying to market and continue to grow that via direct mail.
Chris: Had to shut it down because filming issues, but realize that hey, I've actually been able to generate results, be the written word. So I continue using my skills. Ended up starting to write for clients in 2015 and unlike most copywriters, I really never got that excited about doing client work. I dunno if it was because I don't know if you remember from John Carlton's kick-ass Copywriting Secrets of a Marketing Rebel training.
Chris: In that training he talked about how the copywriters who make the most money are the ones that write for their own projects and their own products and whatnot. And yeah that really stuck with me. So I've paid the bills and I've worked with some big name clients as a freelancer.
Chris: Haven't really done any freelance projects in about two years now, I just always trended towards using my copywriting skills for my own businesses and my own products. So yeah, still doing that today. Don't really take a hold any freelance clients anymore, but almost everything I do is copywriting dependent or focused these days?
Brian: Yeah, it's really interesting how you mentioned direct mail before. That's how you were, marketing your agencies. That's really fascinating cause everyone's so in love with the online stuff. But, the reality is that direct mail is, I mean I think that it's, it's a sort of unusual, to got to work for that reason. So tell us a bit more about what you're doing there.
Chris: So it's been a couple of years since I've done it by direct mail is always something that's fascinated me, especially as I've gotten more involved in Facebook Ad funnels and whatnot. I personally never done direct mail on a mass scale. What I was doing was pretty small scale, just 50, hundred mailers going out at once.
Chris: Targeted, customized, kind of typical Dan Kennedy, bulky mail, super customized to the prospect. And it got really good. It got good enough. You know, I think I was getting like, I didn't even know what I was doing and my very first campaign was getting about a 7% response rate. I thought that was great at the time, came to found out that there were people getting, you know, 20 and 30%.
Chris: But yeah, you know, when you look at Facebook ad costs these days relative to, you know, from the time someone opts in or you're talking about 2% conversion rate on a sales page or whatever, you can be spending, you know, $10 just to get an email opt in and anywhere from, you know, $50 maybe to get a conversion on a low end product to, in the high ticket space, which is mainly where I operate these days, 150, 250, 400 dollars just to get a call booked on your calendar.
Chris: So when you look at the cost of doing direct mail, you know, a couple of dollars all the way up to say $10 to do something like a lumpy mail, Fedex, and you look at the response rates on that, it's just a slam dunk. You know, it just makes a lot more sense and everybody has drifted towards online marketing so hard that if you think about, you know, you receive, you receive a FedEx from someone that's gonna get your attention, you know, there's 100% guarantee that the recipient is going to open, that, they're going to read it. So
Brian: Yeah, are you on Justin Golf's email list?
Chris: I am, I don't really read his news. I don't read any, any marketers newsletters at all. I have them all set to go up to a random file, but I saw what he did with his live event and that lumpy mail package, I thought it was
Brian: Ireland so he actually sent them overseas and everything.
Chris: Yeah, I thought that was one of the most potential like viral internet marketing campaigns of all of 2018. I mean that was just brilliant what he did there.
Brian: Yeah, I was dying to do an unboxing video, but I guess he did probably doesn't, I didn't do it cause he probably doesn't want his, his direct mail package spewed out or live on Facebook for everyone to copy. But it's an amazing package, great copy and awesome grabbers inside. So, yeah. And, and he filled up that, he filled out that seminar. He sold out all seats for 25 grand a pop. So, it definitely worked.
Chris: Yeah yeah. Do you want to just kind of give the 30 second overview of what that package was all about for your listeners who you know don't really know what we're talking about here?
Brian: Yeah, cause, Justin Golf is a, is a copywriter who, came to some prominence in the last couple of years and I've been on his email list for a while. Then basically you have to apply to be on his email list. He doesn't really market to newbies and such. So that, that's a content. Yeah.
Chris: Just to interrupt, but which is brilliant positioning in one self.
Brian: Yeah. So that's the context of where this is coming. Because he, if he send out, you spend this kind of money on a direct mail package, you've got to be careful of who you're going to send it to because, one of the, one of the biggest things in the, the, the package itself was actually a 100 dollar note.
Brian: We should click to the sales letter. And that was your grabber. You know, it's a, it's a standard Gary, Gary Halbert might've might've noticed. I've, I've attached a hundred dollar note to this, this sales letter, and so forth. So that that creates not only grabs attention, but it's a, it's a, it's a, creates reciprocity. So, you know, you've got a hundred bucks in the mail, and so you, you feel obligated to at least read through the stuff and, and consider cause there's a good sales letter and it was well put together.
Brian: It came in a, in a, in a what, a FedEx style box. Not an actual one, but, about that size and shape. So you would have got 100% open rate and it would have got very high consumption rate with that, with that money, because that's a rule every 100 dollar note as well. So, it's a very, very well put together package and, and yeah, he filled up a big seminar, so at 25 grand a ticket. So that, that's the kind of effect you can have with these, this kind of a direct mail package.
Chris: Yeah, yeah. That was everybody I told about it was like, oh my God, can I see it? Can I see, Can I see the letter? I live in Brazil, but all my mail goes to my parents' house in the US just because it takes forever for mail to get here. And my dad sent me an email after he got it. He's like, you got some guy sent you a 100 dollar, looks like some kind of scam or some shit like that. I was able to make a funny little Facebook post off of that, but, yeah, no, that, that was just brilliant right there.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. So, direct mail works and it's something that copywriters should do. I mean, I used to sell, years ago, back in the day. Probably before you even started online, I sold an info product on how to make money on Ebay because of my early days. I did really well on Ebay and, I followed the course on that and I sold it purely offline. I took out ads in newspapers and magazines, generated leads to, they call the a toll free recorded message list, the dates and, and I sent out the sales letters.
Brian: That, that, that free report that I'm sending out on the first contact was converting about 10% and had a few other letters. It was brought form is like, five or 600 bucks too. So, I live the lives of that for a while, but you know, we forget about doing direct mail. I'm glad to see that, that, so you're, you're someone who appreciates it.
Chris: Yeah, a 100%. I'm actually preparing to do another kind of a sniper targeted campaign, probably about a hundred contacts doing something like a FedEx type lumpy mailer in June. Next time I go back to the US so, as you and I continue talking, I'll let you know how it goes and if it turns into, generates some interesting results, maybe I can come back and kind of share how I did it and how it all went down.
Brian: Yeah, yeah. Back to the online world. It's really, it's really fascinating because the course, as I mentioned before that I did, oh, it's still going on with you. You know, it's about, about social media and Facebook posting and making money that way. So, that's been a really interesting experience. Well worth it for me and I think all the other guys in the, in the course feel the same way. So how did, how did that come about and what, what, what made you start to a project like this?
Chris: So, as, as you know, personally, listeners probably won't know this. I worked for clients on demand, one of the really big, how to get high ticket coaching clients, companies out there, in 2018 and just saw how many people were frustrated and fed up trying to make these high ticket funnels work, needs, you know, Facebook Ads to Evergreen Webinar to strategy session or a phone call.
Chris: And I had had, I saw that, you know, the overall funnel itself converts about one in 500. So for every 500 people come through, one person will book a call or one person will become a paying client. I forgot which, which one it is and generally speaking the coaches and experts that run these funnels are closing about 15 to 20% of the people they get on the phone with. Which means that they're getting rejected by about 80 to 85%.
Chris: They're hearing a no on 80 to 85% of their sales calls, which is just extremely discouraging and makes it hard to get excited about. Yeah, no, it's, it's bad. Yeah. So, it's just discouraging when you're getting rejected on four out of five sales calls that you get on. Whereas I have basically had the opposite. I market my businesses organically, mainly through my written content on Facebook and for my high ticket services, which has been anywhere from 2000 to about 14,000.
Chris: I'm closing 60 to 90% of the people that I get on the phone with and just very low stress, low pressure sales calls. And looking back, I realized that the reason that I had such success selling high ticket over the phone was because I was nurturing my audiences organically. I was giving them, I was building relationships with them, establishing my authority, allowing them to move at their own speed and just get on the phone with you when they were ready.
Chris: And I just realized it was such a stark difference compared to the paid traffic model. So I launched that program to basically show people how I do that, how I nurture my audiences and how I generate leads and sell my high ticket programs entirely through Facebook organic. And that got a lot of interest. A lot of people who were interested didn't quite qualify for the program.
Chris: Yeah, it's been really interesting working with you guys and kind of, showing, unveiling my system and how I do what I do and whatnot. And I knew it wasn't just me. I've talked to a lot of people who've seen very similar, you know, 60 70, 80% closing rates on their high ticket sales calls because they're nurturing their audiences organically. And there are, so kind of what I'm doing now. Separate from the program that I've been working on with you, is helping experts and coaches use their paid traffic funnels to feed their organic.
Chris: So we run the kind of similar style, high ticket traffic funnel, but then for the, you know, 95 or 98% of people who don't convert and book a call right away, we feed them into my client's Facebook groups or have them follow them on social media or whatever.
Chris: So that they're able to do that nurturing because over the long run that's going to help them recoup three x five x, the amount of sales that they're making if all they were doing was paid traffic. So yeah, that was kind of a test just to see if people had interest in that and there was, so I rolled it out and, yeah, hopefully, hopefully you've been in some value out of that.
Brian: Yeah, I think we all have. And it's been really interesting to get your insights on that. I mean, posting on Facebook and social media is really interesting because there's a lot of talk about, you know, whether a link in your post actually, you know, curbs the engagement or the reach or you know, whether you should, pitch or, or just off of value. So there's a lot of different factors that are placed. So it's been really interesting learning about that kind of stuff.
Chris: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's been by far the channel I've had the most successful with. It's definitely not for everybody. If you have no writing skills whatsoever, then we should probably do something like video or audio or whatever. But, yeah, I found, I'm actually in the process of rolling out a new program right now, this minute.
Chris: And It's starting to get interest from non copywriters in how they can improve their copywriting and social posting because there's a lot of business owners out there that understand the value in doing content marketing, have dabbled in written content, maybe they have a blog, maybe they do some social media and I just saw this gap in the market where almost every copywriting training be like, even if we were talking about Justin Golf a second ago, him and his partner are in the process of launching a brand new training.
Chris: Just saw a guy post about that yesterday. I know Sean Boster is about to come out with something and it's like every single copywriting training on the market is designed how to, to show fulltime copywriters, like freelance copywriters who get paid to write for clients how to get better. But there's almost nothing on the market out there that's dedicated to showing just your everyday business owner, how they can improve their copy skills, how they can write more effective social posts, et cetera.
Chris: So, that's an offer that I'm dabbling in right now. I've only been testing it to see if there's any interest over the past couple of days, but so far so good. So yeah, a lot of, lot of exciting stuff with that. You know, that you can do with copywriting, whether your full time and a freelancer or just an everyday business owner. You know, there's, there's so many different ways that you can use the written word to generate interest in your services and even sell them entirely via copywriting. So
Brian: Yeah. So, it's interesting about as well about the, the non copywriter thing because it's, it's a big market out there of people who haven't advanced. You're going to be a lot more people who don't, have never studied copywriting than have obviously. This is a different note to like the, like a beginners' copywriting course. So it's not like, taking someone who has never studied copywriting then wanna become a copywriter. What you're doing is different from like these beginner type of courses?
Chris: Yeah. So it's kind of the 80-20 of copywriting. That's probably the easiest way that I can explain it. You know, if you look at a lot of the advanced copywriting trainings about coming up with hooks and coming up with big ideas and some of the more advanced stuff about rhythmic writing and super deep market research and all this stuff and the, you know, as, as you know, you and I both see a lot of samples from copywriters have various skill levels.
Chris: Even the majority of full-time copywriters really aren't even very good at this stuff. Most, most quote unquote copywriters can't come up with hooks. They can't come up with big ideas, they don't spend a lot of time on market research. So, I would be kind of peeling that back. It just avoiding that super deep, super academic copywriting stuff and really just focusing on the 80-20 of how can you write.
Chris: How can you write engaging copy for social media? How can you write engaging emails without having to go super deep into this hand copying sales letters and reading a hundred year old books and all this stuff. And the reason I even had the idea for this program is because I know that you follow some of these guys, but some of the guys and girls who generate the most income from social media and who get the most engagement on their posts are non copywriters.
Chris: If you look at guys like Bobby Stocks, Adam Lincoln Augur, Justin Brooke. There are, there are a lot of people out there who are not full-time copywriters at all but have figured out how to kind of channel their inner voice and create really high performing, really engaging, social media content. So that's kind of, that's gonna be the focus of the program is just really helping people tap into their inner voice and just kind of let loose.
Chris: Because I think that's the, the main obstacle that holds a lot of people back. You know, they, they just refuse to kind of go on these rants and refuse to really let their opinions be known, let their inner voice out, whereas if you look at some of these people who just do really well with their social, despite the fact that they're not full-time copywriters, that's really the main difference.
Chris: You know, they're, they don't hold back. They're willing to really speak their mind about what's going on in their industry, in their opinions and da De da De da. So, yeah, it's, it's brand new. I haven't fully put it together, but that's just a pattern that I've noticed. I know there's a lot of people out there who want to be able to express themselves through the written word more effectively.
Brian: Yeah. That's really cool because, sometimes you get held back in the dog and then like, you know, you're supposed to, write to a certain formula is supposed to hand write over the letters and, and read all these 200 year old copywriting books and stuff, and you, and you've got to know who Rosser Reeves was and what books he's written and stuff like that.
Brian: So, but, but yeah, you're right. Like, the best kind of a of content market as the people who, who know copywriting, like, an example was, you know, when I, when I had Mine Valley as a client and I worked a lot with the Vishen Lakhiani, he has his own team of copywriters, but, but he was he knew copy himself. He knew what it was like.
Brian: And he would get a lot of engagement on his post as well because he kind of knew how to write them. But, there's a lot of business owners out there who, yeah, I mean, that's often what I get when they hire me. You know, it's like Brian write this because we didn't know how to write anything and we're not writers. We're better at video and we're better on stage and so forth. So, yeah, it's, it's interesting cause it's really a missed opportunity for a lot of people, which I think they can take advantage of, when they do something like that.
Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Well we'll see how it goes. Do you remember the name of the guy who wrote Cashvertising?
Brian: It sounds to me and I don't, I couldn't tell you who actually wrote it.
Chris: Yeah, I can't remember. I know that, I know that book is not as widely respected in the copywriting circles. Although there's a lot of, a lot of these kinds of non copywriters who've had a lot of success with content.
Brian: Drew Eric Whitman.
Chris: Okay. Okay, cool. Yeah, so Cashvertising it's a lot more entry level kind of copywriting book. Just kind of skimmed over over the basics and how to write ads. But he built a very successful business between live, live events, teaching business owners, the basics of copywriting. So that was his whole entire, he ran live seminars.
Chris: You know there's two or three things over the weekend and fill these live events with business owners who just wanted to be able to more persuasively for, for their own businesses. So yeah, I definitely know there's a market for it out there and
Brian: You know who else is great Bill Glazer. I don't think anyone's. I have heard Bill Blazer to write a sales letter, but, he is a guy who has made a lot of money with the written word, you know, he had his menswear stores and he had to use direct mail in those. And that was a great example and afraid to, in an outrageous marketing bookers.
Brian: The title was something like that. And that was a book that at the time when I joined the GK LSC, in a circle, whatever it was, that was the one that they sent out for free. And I also read that and that was awesome. So he is another master of the, the written words who certainly, he wouldn't call himself copywriter at all.
Chris: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
Brian: Yeah. So, speaking of copywriters, in your experience, who is the, who is the weirdest or most quirky copywriter or marketer that you know of in the industry?
Chris: Weirdest or quirkiest that's a good question. I would say Sean Vosler might be the quirkiest. For the listeners who don't know, Sean Vosler is a copywriter and marketing funnel consultant to some very big names in our industry, eight figure experts, Tai Lopez, Alex Becker, et Cetera.
Chris: So his background is copywriting. It's the fundamentals or kind of the basis of everything he does for his clients but he refuses to refer to himself as a copywriter for positioning reasons and just not to get pigeonholed into that into that career or just kind of that positioning.
Chris: But was really interesting about him is that he's actually quite possibly the only writer I know who's extremely good at graphic design. So, you know, they're typically somebody who is one or the other, or just not artistic at all. I couldn't draw a circle to save my life.
Chris: Like I, I'm the worst drawer slash artist in the world. And I think most, yeah, most writers fall into that category, but he is very skilled on the graphic design side of things. So if you look at his info products and courses that he puts out, I mean there's a stunning, just beautiful, the way he combines his content with visuals.
Brian: I just bought his book and his latest website. He did, he does all the graphics as well?
Brian: Oh That's interesting.
Chris: Yeah. Yeah, I was just talking to him out in TNC and, yeah, so he, he's definitely quirky, interesting guy to follow on social media, very intellectual but also very good at just writing conversational copy that gets results. So, yeah, I just actually just didn't really even know about him until recently. We've been talking a little bit and, yeah, very, very interesting guy to follow.
Brian: Cool man. And speaking of following, I think that, you're a good one to follow for sure. I mean, how can people find out more about you. What you do? Is it just case of following you on, on social media or something else?
Chris: Yeah, no, I do have a website. I don't use it for anything at all. It's just chrislaub.com. L-A-U-B. But yes, almost everything I do is through all the content that I post is through my Facebook personal profile. Yeah, you can just look me up, CI hris L-A-U-B and yeah, try to post almost everyday and, yeah.
Brian: Yeah. Cool man. I think everyone listens to this podcast should definitely do that because you're one of the guys to does post a good insightful content and and shows the rest of us how it's done. So I strongly recommend that everyone should kind of add you on Facebook. Do you have a page as well? Cause I mean if you go up to 5,000 friends, you know, it's going to be, people can follow you. But, there's, do you have a page as well?
Chris: Yes, it's linked to from my personal profile. It's also just Chris Laub, similar to my website. I don't use it for anything. I probably should be. But, yeah, if you just type my name into Facebook, you'll find those two options for connecting.
Brian: Yeah, same to me my personal profile on Facebook is where all the action is. You know, I've got a page, but, I never use it just like you and, and don't do much of my sites either. Well then building out at the moment. So yeah, everyone who's listening to this definitely go on Facebook and, and Chris Laub or, or at least follow him, check out his stuff because , you'll learn a lot and you just might end up, in a really cool course at some point, which, which you're very glad that you spent the money on.
Brian: So, yeah, thanks for coming on Chris. I really appreciate your insights here. It's been very, very educational, very , insightful, so thanks for that. We'll have to have you back on the show again sometime.
Chris: Thanks for having me. Good talking with you.
Brian: All right, thanks man. Cheers!
Announcer: Thank you for listening to Geniuses of Copywriting with Brian Cassingena. To get the full transcript in all the resources mentioned on today's show, go to www.geniusesofcopywriting.com now.