Announcer: Welcome to the Geniuses of Copywriting podcast, a peek into the minds and strategies of the world's greatest copywriters, marketers, and persuasion experts. And now, here's your host, Brian Casingena,
Brian: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Geniuses of Copywriting podcast. It's going to be a lot of for today because we've got the young, Angie Colee on the call with us today. So thanks for joining us, really appreciate you coming along. How are you?
Angie: I'm pretty good. How are you?
Brian: Awesome man. Awesome. Now it's a good thing to hang out with you on a Friday nights as we do this show. So yeah, I think we'll have a lot of fun because, if I Intro you to the listeners very quickly, you're a self taught talk copywriter, you've worked your way up through the ranks running teams at some of the most successful Internet marketers around. I'm really looking forward to hearing about that because I've worked with a few successful ones myself.
Brian: You've done millions of dollars of sales in all different industries for these guys and yourself. And now you're coaching up and coming copywriters and how to conquer their fears, gather up the courage to leave the day job, which is a hard time. Oh, I've done that several times so they can do their own thing in a freelance way. So yeah, thanks for joining us in the call. I appreciate that. Can you tell us what kind of stuff you are you working on right now?
Angie: Well I've got some big projects coming up, so I worked for Jeff Walker of Product Launch Formula and a coach with Kevin Rogers of Copy Chief. And, we've got some big projects coming up on the horizon that I can't really share because they're not live yet, but I'm super excited to see what they generate.
Brian: Yeah. Interesting, interesting. So, what's it like to work with some of these big name Gurus?
Angie: It's really interesting cause I think the funny thing about working with Jeff is that I met him through a mutual connection and I didn't really honestly know who he was before I applied to work with him. And so once I was like, oh, okay, this guy seems super legit, I started doing research, I just, threw my hat in the ring with the best application that I could.
Angie: And I think that actually wound up helping me a little bit because I didn't approach it from this place of like starstruck or oh my God, what if I'm not good enough? I just approached it like any other gig. And I think that's the funny thing since I get to work with him on a pretty consistent basis, that the gurus are just normal people and they love cutting loose and dropping F bombs like the rest of us.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. I mean I've worked myself with Vishen Lakhiani of Mindvalley for three years pretty closely and Justin Brooke as well for about six months. And the guys are just, they're just, that's what I find too, they're just regular people who have a good skill set.
Brian: But I really wanted to find out about this because this is something that I'm going to be talking about in an event that we've got coming in Poland, how actually managed to land some of these what we call big fish clients and now that you've done the same as well. What is the best piece of advice that you could give someone if they see one of these experts is hiring?
Angie: That's actually a good, I mean, what I would say is if they're hiring, just know where you are realistically. Because if there's a job announcement out and they're pushing it out to their list, that's when you land in the pile with all the other resume piles and you're going to have difficulty standing out. I think the best way to get to know these people is to get involved in their communities and really understand what they're doing from the inside out.
Angie: I'll tell you, we've had, we got pitches that come in all the time with people that young dudes that aren't really familiar with the brands that tell us how they can make us more money and they can really improve the team and stuff like that. But understand that until you know the community from the inside out, everything that you're operating on is and assumption and you don't really have any knowledge about how you can help.
Angie: So understand when I say this, like they're paying attention to people who make themselves useful in the community. If you have a guru or an industry leader that you follow and you've learned their message to the point that you can answer like they would to their people, they know you. Like I've been to events before where people have interacted with me online for both Jeff's business and Kevin's business and they're surprised when I remember their name, I'm like, well yeah, you give thoughtful responses, you help a lot of people. Of course I know your name.
Brian: Hmm. That's really interesting because it's that personal touch. And, uh, the way I was kind of taught to apply for jobs when I was, uh, you know, we're in a high school late, she was completely different to that. You know, you had to necessarily look at the uh, um, uh, companies, websites and basically find out what they, what they, uh, uh, were doing. And there's just nothing to do with communities. There was no way to, even if it existed right back then, you know, I'm not sure that schools would have taught that at all. So,
Angie: yeah. And that was, that was all about like optimizing your resume for a software that's scanning for keywords and stuff like that. And this is such a relationship business. Um, you and I have floated in the same circles for, and when you reached out to connect, I was like, oh that guy, I don't know why we haven't connected before now. And so like when you are out there and you're genuinely trying to help people, um, and like what I would say is avoid the Dick slinging corners of the Internet where everybody's trying to tear it down and Brag and one up each other. But if you're out there genuinely trying to help people and generally genuinely trying to master your craft, people are noticing and you're making good connections.
Brian: Yeah. So what, what kind of, what kind of communities are we talking about here? Exactly. Because some of these guys a quite active in the, in things like Facebook groups, while some probably never, never really log in at all. Um, it's faithful groups. A big tool that the, when you talk comes to talking about this
Angie: a little bit Facebook groups. Cause I know that there's a couple like copyright raid, copywriting related communities out there on Facebook. Um, people ask me how I got involved in Kevin's world and that was, I was a paying member of copy chief first and foremost. Um, I joined because I wanted to be better as a copywriter. And then I realized that I was one of the few people that actually when I joined copy chief, I had five or six years of experience. And so I was able to answer people that were behind me on the path and needed to learn what I knew about copywriting. And you know, as my expertise has grown, I've been able to help people behind me, help people behind them and came up on Kevin's radar and I took training with him. I got to know him really well. Um, I respected his message and his approach to business and learned everything I could from him and helped as much as I could. And that's how I came to coach.
Brian: Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. And Ken and Tim and such a great guy. So what, think you met him once or twice, but, uh, uh, but, uh, but yeah, um, it's, it's a great point that you make about this is like an investment into, into your future. You know, if you're, if you're just a, um, uh, hang around the free groups and, you know, uh, there's a off paid off what's around especially that, especially if you're a copywriter, let's say you're a copywriter, which is a lot of people obviously listening to podcasts. Ah, you know, um, uh, well the, uh, um, and your, you want to work with Kevin and say, and you, you're in his group and use and, uh, you know, interact a little bit on with comments on Facebook and something like that. Uh, but you won't join his, uh, his, uh, his, uh, paid membership, which, which I think is still relatively inexpensive, a great investment. If you want to take that step. Um, do you think that would really hold back a copywriter wanting to work with Kevin?
Angie: I mean, it can, and I'll, I'll speak in a broader sense like not just to Kevin. Um, but when you're starting a business, especially a freelance business, you have to do what you can with what you've got. You can't let lack of capital stop you from doing these things. Now, that said, if you want, if you've got a little bit of experience and you've done the shitty local gig and the crappy upwork jobs and you've got a little bit, you've proven that you can get paid to do this, um, then the next step is realizing that if you want someone to pay you real money, you've gotta be willing to pay real money to get in the room with them. They're not hanging out in front, like you mentioned earlier, they're not signing into Facebook to hang out in free groups. Not unless they're getting paid, because they understand that their time is worth money. They're paying five fingers to get in a room and meet with people that are on their level. So this really is an investment in yourself when you're willing to pay for that.
Brian: Yeah, this is what, that's what I'm talking about cause we, um, and I'm sure it is thinking the assembly we know in no way mean to imply that the to Kevin or anyone else would only hire people who have paid, you know, a certain level of money. That's not the way it works. It's just a massive stepping stone. If you are in that paid group, that's just a massive advantage that you have a six, you're a copywriter. You has has come to writing training and a, you want to work for him but you want to invest in yourself. Yeah. Daddy. Right for that.
Angie: Yeah. And I mean it's, it's definitely not a mental checklist. Like did someone pay to be part of my group? But it's a subtle cue when you're willing to spend money and invest in yourself and be in the same room with these people and kind of step up. And Brian Kurtz talks about not being the smartest person in the room. And I think that's a mistake that a lot of younger copywriters make is that they're constantly trying to prove and like, here's what I know and here's how I can help. And listening and asking questions is the best way to show your expertise and being surrounded by smart people that can show you the next step is the best way to increase your,
Brian: yeah. And he has proof that, uh, that, uh, that you, um, 100% right on this is because, you know, uh, as, as I, um, I think I mentioned before we broke for ad skills for about six months and just in broken, um, running the daily newsletter and, um, uh, well I was obviously I've been writing copy for a long time. You know, paid ads is not my strong point. You know, I'd never, I don't think I've ever bought, uh, um, a major course from ad skills. Um, I've never really done much pay traffic in my own business and just starting to do it now. So, um, everything that I, that I, I, uh, wrote about when I was there, you know, I had to learn on the job and, uh, we got started pretty quickly and, and, and had some pretty big wins, but, but, uh, um, you know, I didn't have to join all of Justin's programs and before he would, uh, you know, me, Jaime and he would never sit such a criteria and none of the people that we would work with would do such a thing, but you can do it.
Brian: And that, I think that gives hope to a lot of a lot of copywriters, you know, cause I, I've, when Justin contact me and said, you know, um, you know, let's work together. I'm thinking like Jesus is the daily edge here. That's pretty intimidating. Not only is it, uh, one of the most respected newsletters, uh, uh, in the entire industry. Now it's, it's about a subject, which is not my strongest subject. If it was, it was about general copywriting or email copywriting especially, you know, you know, it'd be right at home, but I had to do a lot of training there. So, so it can, it can be done.
Angie: Oh, absolutely. And like it's, it's about starting where you're at with what you've got and then actually taking action instead of getting caught. And that's perpetual steadily rap. Like you mentioned when you introduced me that I'm a self dot copywriter and it's true. I went to school and I got three degrees, none of which I actually use now, like my, my master's degree up there, gathering dust. Um, and after I got laid off from a job that was actually related to my master's degree, I read a book, I read a $20 book called the welfare writer by Peter Bower Mint. And then I went out and was like, Eh, I could figure this out. And 10 years later, this is where I'm at. Um, so it's about starting where you're at with what you've got and then using any revenue that you generate an investing in getting better.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. Um, if somebody is going to targets, um, uh, the surf these gurus for, for, um, for copywriting gigs, whether it's ongoing or sort of the freelancing.
Brian: Do you think that it's best to sort of work your way up? So it's sort of lesser known marketers or which is it just a good idea to just to go right from the beef fish like a Jeff Walker?
Angie: That's actually a really good question. I hadn't thought about it. I think if you want to work with the big fish, you'd better be prepared to show some results. At least it doesn't necessarily need to be in a related field. Like when I went to work for Jeff, I was coming from in house retail, uh, and I had worked there. I mean we're talking writing physical print catalogs that went out, writing product descriptions and sending daily retail broadcast by email. Um, and that's not internet marketing. It's, it's definitely a different field, but there are transferable skills. So I think if you bring some results to the table and then you show them how you connect the dots in between what you've generated and what you can do, um, I think that's a good place to start. I think if you're the kind of person and you just have to know how you operate. If you're the kind of person that needs the confidence boost before you feel like you've leveled up to working with someone like that, then yeah, start with someone that's, you know, a step or two ahead of you and target those people. Um, but just like understands that no one is, is really going to turn around and like hand you an opportunity to have, to be prepared to step up into that role and to do your best with every opportunity that you've got.
Brian: Yeah, yeah. The uh, um, yeah, you always have to earn it like, like you say. And whether that's through your own business or, or working with, uh, with other people. Um, I guess, I guess, uh, uh, as a question because people want to jump right in and, and what, and you know, say they worked with the, with the, um, uh, Jeff Walker or somebody like that who everybody in the community would instantly know who that is. Um, and it's a, it is a big feather in your cap and, um, but I just, yeah, it's not easy for everyone to, to make that sort of a huge leap. Yet often if I have to work out. Yeah,
Angie: that's true. And I think a lot of people get intimidated a little bit. It's, it's a big brand. It's a big voice. But if you can speak for any other brand, if you've done work for any other brands, you can do the same thing. It's this exact same process. So, um, I think that's how I kind of made peace with it. I'm like, this is just like writing in any other voice I've ever written and that's how we got to work so close together.
Brian: That's really interesting point as well. Writing, pick different people's voices. Uh, do you have any tricks for that? Because, uh, you know, that's one of the big challenges, uh, that, uh, any copywriter faces when they come, we'll pull on board with a new client, you know, um, it's almost inevitable that a, there's going to be some different since we really get to, unless they're pretty much exactly the same as what you'd been writing already. You have any, any tricks for that?
Angie: Well, um, it's interesting. I don't know if you've met Abby Woodcock, but, uh, she was actually the person that designs the voice training for Jeff and she's got this great download on one of our sites. I would have to look it up. I can't remember it off the top of my head, but she's got a book actually that helps define how she breaks down voice. And I mean if I were to shorten it up and this is not doing it justice like whatsoever, but you've got to develop this internal voice in your head. Um, I've joked with Jeff before when I had to write onsite at one of his events that I had to actually put on headphones at one point and drown out the Jeff on stage so that I could hear the Jeff in my head cause he was confusing me by the double dog.
Angie: Um, and that's really the thing. Like I'll draft something and then I'll just sound, you know, legit crazy. I'll turn on the Jeff in my head and read it in that voice and if it sounds like something that he wouldn't say, I couldn't imagine him saying that on video. Then I'll cut it and I'll rework it. Um, and that's hours of listening to his videos, listening to the podcast that he's recorded, listening to the feedback videos he's recorded with me. I'm asking him like, I'll literally ask him questions all day if he lets me. So we have to schedule meetings where I can pepper him with questions and um, it's, it's studying how they would answer things in the vocabulary they use and the things that they choose to leave out and why. Um, and really just kind of understanding the thought process is that allows you to become a good mimic.
Angie: And the thing is, I would say, so there's a team of us that write for Jeff. There's three of us total, plus Jeff does some of his own writing. And the cool thing about a team is that I'm never going to be 100% just because I'm Angie, right? I'm never going to be in his head and I'm never going to get it. I mean, there are pieces that I can get that are 100% there that he'll publish and that's fine, but I'm never going to be 100% everything that ever created. I'm going to nail the first time Jeff. Um, but between the three of us, that right from each of us brings our 80 to 90%. And that sounds like a very rich, nuanced.
Brian: Yes. Yeah, yeah. And vision was the same, you know, he, he was very hands on, uh, with, uh, with all of its riders. So, um, you know, we work closely with him just to, to perfect and Polish everything up. So, um, yeah, it was the same thing with really interesting. Um, uh, what's it like, um, uh, to work with some of these guys? I'm like on a personal level, do they, are they're very demanding or do they let you be very entrepreneurial or do they want you to sort of, uh, uh, we're very in a rigid structure with the team. Um, I mentioned that it varies from person to person.
Angie: Yeah. And I think the thing that attracted me to Kevin and to Jeff are that they are exactly the person off screen as they are on camera. Yeah. And that's probably the question I get asked the most when people find out that I worked for Jeff, I worked for Kevin Lincoln, the last person to say is he really as nice as he seems to be in person? Like yeah, it's the exact same person. And these were guys that were preaching authenticity before it became a trendy thing, but understood that people need to feel like they know the real you and they're not just being told. Um, so I love that. Like these are genuinely guys that live the message that their say.
Angie: And there are other entrepreneurs that do that too, that believe in hustling 24, seven and really not taking vacations. Um, and, and Kevin and Jeff are both very big on replenishing the well understanding that creativity is a limited resource and that you've got to take time for yourself. You've got a separate from work a little bit. Um, and to that end, you know, there've been times that I've been on, like we use a slack channel to communicate for Jeff's team and there've been times that I've popped on and answered something at 10 o'clock at night, and if he was on, he was like, sign off, we can handle this tomorrow. It's okay. I need you to enjoy your weekend. Um, and I really respect that about them.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. I tried to send it to my team as low could say. They're always popping up at different times and, and uh, yeah, cause we're all online all the time and, and we, we, uh, I'm actually, uh, use Facebook a lot, so for chatting. So we, uh, um, that we're kind of on by default and something comes up, you know, say it, don't, don't worry about that now. Just, it's, it's a weekend. Enjoy the weekend, enjoy your evening. They worry about it. We'll take care of it tomorrow.
Angie: Exactly. I'm a fan of saying there's no such thing as a copy emergency. There are deadlines, but if it's an emergency, it's just shitty planning.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah, true. True. Um, and on that note we're of teams and everything. Um, uh, I want to dive deeper into and to, um, uh, the entrepreneurial factor of the person working on that team. Do these, do these guys fly, uh, like, uh, um, uh, encourage you to be entrepreneurial or do they just want to basically have to exclusively because the thing with the division, you know, he, he, he, uh, he preferred people to be focused on the team and, and uh, that's fair enough. Of course, you know what you're working for mind and, and, and, and everything they stand for. Um, whereas I know some entrepreneurs, uh, um, uh, I'm more than happy for somebody who's on their team to have their own business, uh, uh, to run fishy, fair if they're not working full time. Um, I've had had something like that. What's been your experience with that?
Angie: Well, it's interesting cause I remember the last time I read a job listing that Jeff had, like, they make it clear when they're bringing somebody on board to work with the team that they're interested in a longterm relationship. This is not personal coaching so that you can launch your own business. This is not like get to know PLF from the inside out so that you can go do your own thing. But they also understand that everybody on the team is very naturally drawn to entrepreneurship and publishing and doing your own thing. Like we live the values from the inside out that he preaches. So that said, like, we never really sat down and had a talk about like, here's what I do. Here's what I don't do then. And I just don't flaunt it. And I don't let that get in the way of what I'm doing.
Angie: I do my own thing because I'm not going to let anybody not let me do my own thing mean. Um, and they know that I'm super passionate. One of the reasons that I coached for Kevin is that, you know, it changed my life when I realized that I could do this thing. And it all started from one book. So if I can help someone realize that they could start an entirely new career, they could become their own copywriters, start their own business and gain that confidence, then I'm going to do everything in my power to do that. And not only do that, but help introduce talented copywriters to clients that really need talented copywriters. So I think that even if it ever came down to like, I just don't foresee a future where Jeff would tell me not to follow.
Brian: Yeah, true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm meeting him briefly at TNC this year. Uh, he seemed like he was really laid back and, and is that kind of guy? Um, some ask because some people are, uh, if the, uh, no matter who they are considering working with, you know, it could be, uh, the, the, the person wants them exclusively and, and it doesn't want them running their own business. I think the way, the way you, the way you approach it is his ideal. You know, you, you would never, you would never let your business get in the way to work with Jeff and vice versus, so you would never eat something, some kind of inside knowledge for from, uh, uh, from Jake's business, uh, to a hit in your own business. So,
Angie: and it's funny on that note because, you know, I'm, I'm on Kevin's team too, and we've promoted for a lot of the same affiliate offers and every time I heard even a hint of Kevin and his team talking about an affiliate promotion, I was like, I recused myself. I need to get off this call. I don't want to hear it. Um, and like, I won't even let a hint of, I'm using this to advance, advance my career here. Yeah. My dealings. Yeah.
Brian: That's a balancing act when you're working with a, um, uh, more than one of these experts because, uh, uh, there could be some conflict like that is there, especially during very similar niches.
Angie: And I saw a clear dividing line though, because I w I write emails for Jeff and I don't write promotional emails for Kevin. So there's no need that I need to be on promotional discussions for Kevin in terms of Jv like that. Yeah. Because we've already got a gig doing that.
Brian: Yeah. So my next question was going to be how do you handle that? And I think yeah, you covered that nicely, you know, um, yeah, just make sure that there's no, um, no hint of even a possibility of you being witness to any information that that's could be like that in that put you in a situation. So, um, yeah, you'd have to, yeah. You have to police that all the time. It'd be vigilant.
Angie: Absolutely. And you have to think about how your clients would interpret your actions. And so I would rather be super upfront about I need to recuse myself from this conversation. Yeah. Then it ever even pop into their minds that this might be something that's happening. Um, and I want to point out to them that I'm thinking about it before they ever even think about it. Yeah. I think that's why I've got a reputation of, of doing the right thing cause I'm really focus.
Brian: It's true. True, true. Yeah. Um, uh, what other advice can you give to people who want to, um, uh, you know, work with these worth with the big dog in whether a copywriter or anything else?
Angie: Um, well, I'll just, I'll reiterate that it's important to get to know their business from the inside out. Like I've seen some of the pitches that come through where people are lecturing Jeff on like how to build a relationship with their audience before the kitchen. I'm like, do you even, do you even know who you're talking to? Like, have you actually followed our work and God, because I have that as a works before. I know, like from what I'm hearing from your pitch, I'm like, it's clear to me that you have no idea who we are and, and how it operates. You have to try and load some modal. Yeah, I like they're both via epitome of giveaway as much as possible. Yeah. Um, definitely get to know the product before you presume that you can help someone. Um, don't make assumptions about, and it definitely don't come into it with a critical approach. I know I've seen people that have a strategy of picking apart an email and telling people like, Oh, I noticed this and this and this and you need to fix that and it's horrible and it's killing. I can tell you that a typo in a Jeff Walker email has never killed a conversion for us. So everybody needs to stop beating on that damn girl. If they love the content that you're putting out on a regular basis, they will forgive all manner of typographical sense.
Brian: Sure. And when you start to pump out, so much of that content in the top eight are inevitable as just it's a numbers game. Yeah. Um, yeah. So, uh, what are some of the, um, is there any particularly weird or quirky pictures that people have made to Jeff? Because I'm thinking, I just sort of, uh, uh, at of Todd Brown and then Gora, um, one of his, uh, his three training season as he, uh, Joe Schriefer, the copy chief was a gore financial, it's showing Todd Brown around his office and he shows that some of the weird stuff that people are sent in the applications. I don't know if you've seen this video where one of the things is like literally an anvil, which someone sent in, which I know what the shaking was on that, but can I show you if it's got this anvil black solid steel, obviously cast iron anvil on his desk. Wow. Uh, of, uh, of an application letter for someone who wants to write copy for a golf financial.
Angie: That's, I mean I don't, I don't work in the same town as the core stuff. They, they're based out in Colorado and I am currently in Florida. So I don't see any of like the physical mailers that come in. I do know that we've run a SPEC challenges for AI and put out and, and I will say this, like if you're going to apply to an application, follow the directions that you're given. That's not the chance to be creative when you're going to be creative. It's something like that where it's out of the blue and you're trying to get their attention. But yeah, like if I put out an assignment that says, hey, write me this blog post as Jeff Walker, I don't want to see you're like four pages from the perspective of a housewife. Yeah, yeah. That's not actually relevant to what the job is.
Angie: So, you know, I would say that like follow the directions, uh, if you're looking to get their attention through traditional application roots and then definitely, um, I'm totally not actually answering the question in terms of quirky. I would say that the house, the housewife essay was definitely one of the weird things that I got. Yeah. I also had someone throw a chocolate bar with their, uh, website, prince. It, it's helped me face to face. Um, and, and I will say that too, like if you meet me at an event, leave behinds or probably not a thing, like I've got to pack a bag at the end of the day and yeah, dozens and dozens of people are trying to hand me stuff. I'm probably not going to pack it all and take it all with me. So your best bet is to get to know me as a person. Again, going back to the importance of relationships, get to know me, get to know somebody that you want to develop a relationship with. And for God's sake, don't throw chocolate at them
Brian: unless you're a bit picky. She wouldn't mind is talk about right now. Actually I probably wouldn't bother to read the on the label there.
Angie: Yeah, I would probably just eat the chocolate. Yeah,
Brian: that sounds good to me as well.
Angie: Yeah. And it's not because I'm a mean person, it's just that you have to understand that are a lot of other people that are doing the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. If time is a precious resource, I would much rather spend my time getting to know you. And remember you for who you are face to face having interesting conversations versus well that person left me a chocolate bar and so did a dozen other yeah,
Brian: yeah, yeah. Cause that's what it's all about. You know, um, I think the higher profile of the Guru, you know, the more a job application. So I would get both cold and uh, and in, in response to an Ed.
Angie: Yeah, absolutely. We get inundated every time we publish an ad.
Brian: Yeah. Mon Valley is a, it's pretty much the same thing. There's a whole culture where, uh, mind valley is like the dream job, you know, because I was talking about the team in different content pieces and, and the team is awesome or do they go great things and they have great fun events and all of that. Um, so that's like a well known thing online and, and, and uh, especially with younger people, they all want to want to be on the, on the mind valley team. Cause that's kind of the age group would a or it's a check. That's it. I don't know how I made it on the outside. They're too wet to totally trashed the bell curves in age.
Angie: I think I almost applied for that Gig once upon a time when you had a senior role open. I don't remember. I think, I think I had a partner at the time that wasn't willing to move to Malaysia and that's what stopped me. But yeah, yeah, yeah, we considered it.
Brian: Hmm. It's a big move because, um, the, the mind value of the core team, uh, is it's all in the relation office as a few satellite offices as well. But, uh, um, but, uh, they do, they do have a handful of freelancers and I did freelance copy from after a while, for a while after I left. Um, but the core team is, is in, is in one place, in one main place. And this is by what the way you've been saying is, it sounds like it's the same case with the, uh, with Jeff and everyone else. They have like a, a proper office with a core team and, and, uh, um, uh, how do they, how do they approach remote working in different time zones?
Angie: Oh, that's it. Like we, they put a premium on communication skills and people being able to articulate this is where I'm at and her project and this is how I need help and, and keeping things moving forward instead of just kind of working in your own corner. I think that, I mean the main office that they have there is pretty much Jeff and his family because that's how he started growing the business. And like none of this is a secret. He's mentioned this, that it has videos like the first people that he brought on, we're pretty much his family members to help out. And then he started growing and I think it was natural to like pick people from the community around him. And then he started hiring, you know, all the team members and we're spread out all across the United States and Canada. Um, all different backgrounds and skill sets and it's crazy from tech and service to videography and design.
Angie: So, uh, it's, it's a pretty cool Gig, I would say. Um, we get together with a coach every once in a while to help us figure out what we want to focus on. Where our goals are. And, um, and we try to spend quality time together. Whenever there's an event, it's an all hands on deck type situation. You'll see me at the back table at a Jeff event answering questions and checking people in. You know, I don't, um, that he is very conscious in building a team culture where people are comfortable stepping out of their roles. So I think if I were the kind of person that was like, nope, my job is just behind my keyboard writing copy, um, I probably wouldn't be successful in this environment. And then you just have to know that about the people.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. And I've had some experiences with that as well where, um, you know, I've, I've, uh, been writing copy for a client and I'm now starting to look with the funnels and tracking and, and, and uh, um, uh, even even, uh, um, we're not so much to take stuff, but the strategy behind the campaigns and the slide, Brian, I need a copywriter to do, just, just sit there and write your coffee and relationships. I never lost the, I like the way that, uh, the way that Jeff approaches or like you mentioned, you want to grow into things, into different things.
Angie: Yeah. And I think that a lot of the industry, at least the high rollers in the industry, I think they're moving toward that because that's one of the things that I do with Kevin has helped connect clients and copywriters have the opportunity to get to know a lot of copywriters through coaching them and feel pretty confident in their skills making recommendations. But I get asked over and over again like how do I hire someone like you, someone that's longterm, someone that's dedicated to learning and, and growing with my company. So that doesn't necessarily equate to in house like physically in house, but I'm in house, meaning that I've worked for Jeff's company for two years. I don't have any plans to leave anytime soon cause I love it. Yeah. Um, I've worked with Kevin for several years now. I don't even remember when we officially started working together. I don't have any plans to leave that either. Um, and that doesn't mean that there's not space. Cause I think you and I were talking about that earlier. Hey, stay in touch. You never know how the team's going to grow. We've got some pretty big plans growth as possible. Just because people are full now it doesn't mean that there's not opportunity to get in, but it's about those relationships and knowing the people that are in the position to make an introduction to you. Yeah. Was Awkward derived.
Brian: Do you think that uh, um, it can actually work in your favor if you're thinking long term. If, if a guy like Jeff, he that is full now but he's not hiring but um, that made, that means that seems to me like you've got a great chance to actually build that relationship over time and when the time comes to six months or a year down the track, um, yeah, you're basically in
Angie: absolutely. And to, you know, to go back to what we talked about earlier, being involved in their communities, talk about the ultimate sales strength when the opportunity arises to be able to say, I have this much experience in your method. And I've done this, this, and this, and be able to like link them to post that you've made in the Facebook group or on a video and like show them how you're already perfectly poised to help the people that they're passionate about because you had been helping them to. That's like, that's a no brainer. Um, and I've seen that for people that like when Ramit Sethi was hiring for a while and he's, um, if anybody doesn't know him, he wrote that book. I will teach you to be rich and has a lot of great content. But whenever he hires, he's specifically said in public, like, I'm disappointed when people don't use my methods to apply for work with me and they're not using what I teach that shows that they're just not familiar with me. Um, so do whatever you can to give yourself an edge.
Brian: MMM hmm. So it takes, it takes a lot of study and, and uh, this is actually, um, uh, a lot more work and effort that than, than people expect sometimes. And I've gone through this several times. It sounds a big fish clients that I've worked with and, and uh, um, but the reality is if you want to land the big fish, you've got to, you've got to put in the effort required. You can't just throw a hand line in, in a small, in a little river and expect to a real, in something worth catching.
Angie: It's rare. It's very, very rare that you're going to land a gig like this with a cold contact. Unless you are like the cream of the crop. It's not impossible. I'm never gonna say anything is impossible, but you've got to be like mind blowingly super impressive to lands big gigs like this. Um, you know, we're talking about those kids that, that come up with such creative packages for advertising agencies that they make the new type of presence. It's not impossible. It's never impossible and you should always try your best. Um, and then if a salon is, you're treating, everything that you do is a learning experience and just not using it to judge yourself as a failure if it didn't work, but be like, okay, that didn't work. How do I do better next time, then you'll find success as long as you keep at it. I don't, I don't know anybody that has gotten where they are at a high level that hasn't failed repeatedly, spectacularly and gotten up to try again.
Brian: Sadie. Right. I mean, when I, uh, I, uh, was, uh, talking to, um, uh, the CEO of, of a, of probably the biggest coaching company in the world or one Austin. And, uh, you know, I started talking to him about, uh, about writing copy for him. And so that would have been a, a huge feather in my cap as well. And, uh, started talking to members of his team and in the end date they offered me, um, probably about, um, uh, just give me the math, but probably about five or six times the amount of money that I've ever made in my life and for a long, very long term project over the course of a year. So it's basically a salary, um, but a good one. And, uh, uh, but after the, after that, you know, are just communication, just broke down and, and uh, obviously, um, or they, they, things change.
Brian: It took so long of things change on their end and then, and then, uh, um, you know, for whatever reason we didn't, uh, can I tossed it enough? And then, um, you know, things just kind of dried up and then, uh, uh, but, uh, the way I see that, um, as well as the learning experiences, it's another thing that I could go back to potentially cause I built the relationship. I know, uh, I know the guy personally now on and his team. Um, so I could go back to that person, um, at a later date if I was looking for more work.
Angie: Absolutely. And I think that's probably a big mistake that I see a lot of newer copywriters making too, is that they, some, there's this like invisible dividing line in their brain between like personal relationships and business relationships and business relationships. They almost like hold people to it a, an impossible standard and don't allow people to be people for some reason. Like, Oh, you know, I see that a lot in Facebook groups online too. You know, this client missed a payment or they weren't talking to me and like there's such a Dick, I can't believe that they would disrespect me in the industry like this. And I'm like, oh, did you call them? Did you talk to them? Did you find out what's going in there? Like would you treat your best friend like that? Would you just like, I haven't talked to you for two weeks.
Angie: You're a fucking Dick. Where would you be like, hey, I haven't heard from you in awhile. Is Anything going on? So if you treat people like someone he'd give a damn about instead of this like cash cow that owes you money. I think people can tell and it'll, like you mentioned earlier this, the feather in the cap. I mean, the, the people that are hiring can tell if you're out to just use them for their name versus actually providing value and believing in the mission that they serve. So genuineness, authenticity, and really, really wanting to help. And, and being a caring person is more important than ever right now. Yeah.
Brian: Yeah, yeah. And if you go into that attitude of, yeah, we keep talking about landing the big fish, but if you look an expert and see him as the big fish that you're going to land. So that's the exact attitude that's going to stop you before you get started.
Angie: Yeah. Because you're going to be, you know, subconsciously. It's like you're setting off their bullshit meter and they don't even know what they don't like about you, but they can tell the person. And it's funny cause people, so many of my friends in the copy community kind of laugh at me. I think it took a full year before I was actually comfortable saying that I worked for Jeff Walker and I had to actually, I didn't change my linkedin.
Angie: Whenever people interviewed me about the work that I was doing, I would say, Oh, I'm working for a pretty big name Internet Marketer, but I want to keep that confidential. And it wasn't until one of the events where he mentioned me by name from stage and was like, Angie, my copywriter, and I was like, oh, well he just said it to a thousand people.
Angie: So I guess it's okay if I say, I think, like me recusing myself from conversations, like me not using Jeff to advance my career. Like, could I have gotten farther? Could I have made some money from that? I probably could have. Never say never, but I'm just, that's not the kind of person that I am. And I think that they respect that about me.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. So I think this is all really valuable for anybody who wants to work with people who have that brand name recognition. This is something that I've done in the last few years. The last five or six years or more. Not because I want to land the big fish, but because working with these people is such a learning experience in itself. I mean, can you imagine?
Brian: I'm working closely with Vishen of Mindvalley who's a really smart marketer, a really great copywriter. I was working, running around in meetings with him going to different meetings and everything and strategy meetings and he's providing all this feedback on my copies and know I've been been writing for more than 10 years at the time. That's why I wanted to work so closely with him. And the same with Justin and everyone else, it was never about that selfish attitude. It's about, what can I learn from these people?
Angie: Absolutely. And Jeff is one of the most amazing strategic minds I've ever had. Like I thought that I was pretty well versed in copy and marketing strategy when I met him and I'd seen the inner workings of a billion dollar retail company. But the way this man thinks, just blows my mind. I'm still learning how he processes campaigns two years in.
Angie: And you know, Kevin is one of the most people savvy relationship capital and knowledgeable people that I've ever met. And I've learned so much about not going on a warpath every time I feel some slight and actually building relationships with people and giving them grace for being a human. And so like what I've picked up in working with them and for them in, and helping them further their missions is just priceless.
Brian: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So what's the next step for anyone who wants to go down this path? Can they find out about more on your website?
Angie: Yeah, I have a website, angiecolee.com. I don't really take on any copy projects all that much, but I do some copy coaching and consulting and I'm more focused on helping freelancers kind of find that courage to take the next step.
Angie: Because the reality is like if you're doing most job boards or upwork or any of those sites that you're always going to be playing small potatoes, other relationships, step out of your comfort zone. There's more than enough work at these top level gigs to go around and they're thirsty, so so frigging thirsty for talented copywriters.
Brian: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's very important. And if you're listening on Itunes, go to geniusesofcopywriting.com. I'll put the link for everything up in there and the transcripts and everything. So go and check that out. Yeah, I highly recommend that you follow Angie closely and learn from her in every way that you can because she's someone that you could definitely pay attention to. So yeah. I really appreciate you spending time with us today. It's been very enlightening, very valuable
Angie: It's been a lot of fun!
Brian: .Yeah. Yeah. We'll have to do this again some time.
Brian: All right. Thanks for today!
Announcer: Thank you for listening to Geniuses of Copywriting with Brian Casingena. To get the full transcript in all the resources mentioned on today's show, go to www.geniusesofcopywriting.com now.